3rd out Force/Putout, 2nd out not

[Rhyno]

1 out, runners on second and third, potential walk off scenario.  Ball to shortstop.  Runners go.  Tag is made on running running to third (2nd out). Then a failed play on the runner at home is made.

The batter thinks the game is over and doesn’t finish running to first.  They are thrown out at first eventually (3rd out). 

In a scenario with two outs and the put out on the B/R at first is made, it’s clearly no run scored.

In a situation where the third out is made on such, but on the same play as a relevant preceding out was a timing play on an elective runner, is there any exception?  Or is this still no run, because the third out was a force/PO-on-BR-before-they-reached-first, even if the runner beat the second out (which was necessary to set up the third one ending the inning)?

 

Edited April 18, 2025 by Rhyno

[The Man in Blue]

If the THIRD out is made on the batter-runner before he reaches first base, no run scores.

How the second out is made does not matter.

 

 

That's a nasty play.  Love it (from an umpire perspective).

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

If the THIRD out is made on the batter-runner before he reaches first base, no run scores.

How the second out is made does not matter.

 

 

That's a nasty play.  Love it (from an umpire perspective).

That covers it.

[Jay R.]

Did this actually happen, or is this hypothetical?

If it happened I would love to see video.

[BrainFreeze]

I feel dumb for asking, and I am going to look it up as soon as I ask...

 

Why is that not a time play?  There is no force, so the run would have scored before B/R is out at 1B.  Isn't that a time play? 

[jimurrayalterego]

5 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

I feel dumb for asking, and I am going to look it up as soon as I ask...

 

Why is that not a time play?  There is no force, so the run would have scored before B/R is out at 1B.  Isn't that a time play? 

I'll save you the trouble:

"5.08 How a Team Scores (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner ad vances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases."

[BrainFreeze]

Thank you sir! 

As you can see, I've earned my user name....

[beerguy55]

On a side note, I'm not a fan of the wording of the rule because on a deep/high fly ball the batter is often well past first base before the third out is made by a catch - though everyone seems to organically, or through tribal knowledge, "know" a run doesn't count in that scenario.

[Rhyno]

On 4/25/2025 at 9:18 AM, jimurrayalterego said:

I'll save you the trouble:

"5.08 How a Team Scores (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner ad vances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases."

I admit I’ve never understood the semantic need for a put out at first not to simply be a “force out”.  It fulfills the requirements in every way.  Are there any significant manners in which it is treated differently than a force out on a runner at another base?

[Rhyno]

On 4/19/2025 at 8:54 PM, Jay R. said:

Did this actually happen, or is this hypothetical?

If it happened I would love to see video.

I had a freshman game in HS a few years ago where this happened, and led me to researching it, because I got it wrong.  This time happened in rec softball, where no one really wants to run to first, and I felt like a real jerk calling it (but did).  No video, thankfully.

[grayhawk]

6 minutes ago, Rhyno said:

I admit I’ve never understood the semantic need for a put out at first not to simply be a “force out”.  It fulfills the requirements in every way.  Are there any significant manners in which it is treated differently than a force out on a runner at another base?

It's because of the definition of a force play:

A play in which a runner legally loses the right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

The batter doesn't occupy a base, so he can't lose his right to it. Is it otherwise the same as a force play? Mostly. If a batter-runner retreats to the plate or past it, he is automatically out. This is not the same as forced runners, who would have to be tagged if they retreated to or past the base they are forced from (or the base they are forced to could be tagged with possession of the ball).

[jimurrayalterego]

27 minutes ago, Rhyno said:

I admit I’ve never understood the semantic need for a put out at first not to simply be a “force out”.  It fulfills the requirements in every way.  Are there any significant manners in which it is treated differently than a force out on a runner at another base?

Even though NCAA has the semantic difference they have added some wording to confirm that the “force play slide rule” does not apply at 1B. OBR and FED don’t think that exception is needed but I think both codes have cites that mistakenly refer to a force at 1B. I’m sure of FED but my memory is vague regarding OBR. 

[Velho]

17 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

30 minutes ago, Rhyno said:

I admit I’ve never understood the semantic need for a put out at first not to simply be a “force out”. 

It's because of the definition of a force play:

A play in which a runner legally loses the right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

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17 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Is it otherwise the same as a force play? Mostly. If a batter-runner retreats to the plate or past it, he is automatically ut. This is not the same as forced runners, who would have to be tagged if they retreated to or past the base they are forced from (or the base they are forced to could be tagged with possession of the ball).

 🦤

[beerguy55]

5 hours ago, Rhyno said:

I admit I’ve never understood the semantic need for a put out at first not to simply be a “force out”.  It fulfills the requirements in every way.  Are there any significant manners in which it is treated differently than a force out on a runner at another base?

It's simply an opportunity for elitists to say, "akshuwully...it's not a force because..." and then they feel all smart about themselves, and you feel suitably chastised.

Keep in mind, it may not be a "baseball definition" force play...but the batter is indeed, dictionary-based, forced to advance.

Forced = mandated, obligated, obliged, required, compelled, bound, restricted, etc, etc

For me, the batter is forced to advance by the On-Deck Batter becoming the next batter.  It's not like you can have the batter/runner stop at the 45-foot mark and stay there to wait for a pitch to be delivered to the next batter.

I'm a founding member of the "It's a force at first folks" revolutionary committee, and am happy to accept donations, or other members, at any time.

5 hours ago, grayhawk said:

The batter doesn't occupy a base, so he can't lose his right to it.

 

No, but he loses his right to occupy the batter's box.  

[Velho]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm a founding member of the "It's a force at first folks" revolutionary committee, and am happy to accept donations, or other members, at any time.

And then there is this https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play

"First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air."

[Rhyno]

4 hours ago, grayhawk said:

It's because of the definition of a force play:

A play in which a runner legally loses the right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

The batter doesn't occupy a base, so he can't lose his right to it. Is it otherwise the same as a force play? Mostly. If a batter-runner retreats to the plate or past it, he is automatically out. This is not the same as forced runners, who would have to be tagged if they retreated to or past the base they are forced from (or the base they are forced to could be tagged with possession of the ball).

This feels like an aspect of there being no base before home plate, and a tie in to the concept of abandonment, but that’s the sort of semantic pedantry I’m trying to avoid speculating on.  Lemme let this go.

It feels like there’s definitely a “force play/out” definition that doesn’t rely on that, and would easily encompass both settings.

[beerguy55]

On 5/5/2025 at 10:26 AM, grayhawk said:

It's because of the definition of a force play:

A play in which a runner legally loses the right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

The batter doesn't occupy a base, so he can't lose his right to it. Is it otherwise the same as a force play? Mostly. If a batter-runner retreats to the plate or past it, he is automatically out. This is not the same as forced runners, who would have to be tagged if they retreated to or past the base they are forced from (or the base they are forced to could be tagged with possession of the ball).

 

On 5/5/2025 at 2:57 PM, Rhyno said:

This feels like an aspect of there being no base before home plate, and a tie in to the concept of abandonment, but that’s the sort of semantic pedantry I’m trying to avoid speculating on.  Lemme let this go.

It feels like there’s definitely a “force play/out” definition that doesn’t rely on that, and would easily encompass both settings.

 

On 5/5/2025 at 1:25 PM, Velho said:

And then there is this https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play

"First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air."

 

On 5/5/2025 at 10:46 AM, jimurrayalterego said:

Even though NCAA has the semantic difference they have added some wording to confirm that the “force play slide rule” does not apply at 1B. OBR and FED don’t think that exception is needed but I think both codes have cites that mistakenly refer to a force at 1B. I’m sure of FED but my memory is vague regarding OBR. 

 I did find this NCAA case play in the 2024/2025 softball case book.

A.R. 7-5. With two outs and a runner on third base, the batter-runner puts the ball in play and runs through, but does not touch first base. The runner from third base touches home plate before the first baseplayer tags the batter-runner and appeals the missed base. Does the run score?

RULING: Even though a runner is considered to have touched a base at the time they pass it, the exception is when an appeal is made. Because the batter-runner was out on an appeal of missing first base, it is a force out and the run does not score.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

 I did find this NCAA case play in the 2024/2025 softball case book.

... Because the batter-runner was out on an appeal of missing first base, it is a force out and the run does not score.

The horrors!