Force out

[Forrest Marvin]

1 out, bases loaded, batter hits down the first bases line. Pitcher picks ball up and tags batter out halfway to first base and then touches home plate to get third base runner out. The players that were on 1st and 2nd went to 2nd and 3rd. Is the player that went home out for a double play?

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, Forrest Marvin said:

1 out, bases loaded, batter hits down the first bases line. Pitcher picks ball up and tags batter out halfway to first base and then touches home plate to get third base runner out. The players that were on 1st and 2nd went to 2nd and 3rd. Is the player that went home out for a double play?

No, the force was removed when the batter was tagged out before touching 1B. If you had an ump there should have been an out signal for the tag out and no signal when the pitcher touched HP.

[maven]

15 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

No, the force was removed when the batter was tagged out before touching 1B. If you had an ump there should have been an out signal for the tag out and no signal when the pitcher touched HP.

Below a certain level*, I recommend signaling "safe" and verbalizing "No force out, that run scores!" or the like. As ever, our job is not only to MAKE a ruling, but to communicate it clearly. Saves a LOT of wear and tear, gives the appearance of knowing what's going on, and promotes the good order of that game.

Otherwise, and at higher levels, I agree with Jimurray.

*To save the followup: "certain level" here is going to include 10U and below (except maybe where they've already been playing for 5 years, year around), rec ball pretty much all the way up, and everything else that is more instructional than competitive. The fact that they tried to make a force out here suggests that these players were still learning the rules, in which case I'm leaning toward communicating the ruling more vigorously and vociferously.

[Forrest Marvin]

Was a teenager umpire. Was my sons baseball game. The whole thing was a fiasco. Umpire didn't know and coaches were arguing. 

[Velho]

41 minutes ago, Forrest Marvin said:

Was a teenager umpire.

Was there an adult administrator there to ensure the teenager (working solo?) wasn't thrown to the wolves?

[grayhawk]

3 hours ago, Forrest Marvin said:

Was a teenager umpire. Was my sons baseball game. The whole thing was a fiasco. Umpire didn't know and coaches were arguing. 

What were they arguing about? Let me guess, the coach for the defense was arguing that because it was a tag, it wasn't a "force out" so the run shouldn't score.

[MadMax]

19 hours ago, Forrest Marvin said:

Was a teenager umpire.

@Velho and I have the same question. Was this teen-U working solo? 😬 We get it, there’s a shortage of umpires, and we all gotta start somewhere, but if there is a supervisor adjacent (observing 2-3 games going concurrently? working on the field next door? chalking fields & selling hot dogs? 🌭), then he should be alerted and consulted to “iron things out”. 

This is a ruling, not a judgement; this has to be corrected. 

19 hours ago, Forrest Marvin said:

Was my sons baseball game. The whole thing was a fiasco.

So this was, what… 9U? 10U? 
This should never be a fiasco. 

[The Man in Blue]

21 hours ago, Forrest Marvin said:

Was a teenager umpire. Was my sons baseball game. The whole thing was a fiasco. Umpire didn't know and coaches were arguing. 

 

Shut the game down and send everybody home until the coaches can learn why they are actually there.

 

15 hours ago, MadMax said:

@Velho and I have the same question. Was this teen-U working solo? 😬 We get it, there’s a shortage of umpires, and we all gotta start somewhere, but if there is a supervisor adjacent (observing 2-3 games going concurrently? working on the field next door? chalking fields & selling hot dogs? 🌭), then he should be alerted and consulted to “iron things out”. 

This is a ruling, not a judgement; this has to be corrected. 

So this was, what… 9U? 10U? 
This should never be a fiasco. 

Said administrator should not be ironing it out.  Said administrator should be immediately shutting it down.  Not just the behavior, but the game itself.

The call should be fixed, not corrected.  The coaches need to be corrected.

I know I am grumpy, but this stuff needs to stop, and the only way to stop it is to start with real repercussions.  As you said, this should NEVER be a fiasco.

[The Man in Blue]

22 hours ago, maven said:

Below a certain level*, I recommend signaling "safe" and verbalizing "No force out, that run scores!" or the like. As ever, our job is not only to MAKE a ruling, but to communicate it clearly. Saves a LOT of wear and tear, gives the appearance of knowing what's going on, and promotes the good order of that game.

Otherwise, and at higher levels, I agree with Jimurray.

*To save the followup: "certain level" here is going to include 10U and below (except maybe where they've already been playing for 5 years, year around), rec ball pretty much all the way up, and everything else that is more instructional than competitive. The fact that they tried to make a force out here suggests that these players were still learning the rules, in which case I'm leaning toward communicating the ruling more vigorously and vociferously.

TIME!  That verbiage is not in the rule book.  Do NOT do that.  Do NOT communicate clearly or promote good order in the game.

[points at @maven to resume]