Going to Mouth

[johnnyg08]

Recently was visiting with someone who wanted to debate rule book & case book & alleged inconsistencies around going to the mouth in FED. As you can see below, the rule covers going to the mouth and then engaging the pitcher's plate. it doesn't necessarily cover going to the mouth while engaged on the rubber. In FED I've read that when on the rubber it's more about starting and stopping as opposed to a balk for "going to the mouth" See NFHS slide from 2013 and a Preseason Guide post from 2011. I guess for me, I don't see the same glaring inconsistencies as the person was pointing out. The slides, pre season guides, & case book are pretty clear on how they want this handled. 

 

 

[Senor Azul]

Also relevant to your debate:

Current case plays 6.2.1 situations A, B

2008 online interpretations 6, 7, 8, 9

[Thunderheads]

57 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Recently was visiting with someone who wanted to debate rule book & case book & alleged inconsistencies around going to the mouth in FED. As you can see below, the rule covers going to the mouth and then engaging the pitcher's plate. it doesn't necessarily cover going to the mouth while engaged on the rubber. In FED I've read that when on the rubber it's more about starting and stopping as opposed to a balk for "going to the mouth" See NFHS slide from 2013 and a Preseason Guide post from 2011. I guess for me, I don't see the same glaring inconsistencies as the person was pointing out. The slides, pre season guides, & case book are pretty clear on how they want this handled. 

 

 

Yeah, ... that's spelled out pretty clearly!

[Jimurray]

38 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Yeah, ... that's spelled out pretty clearly!

Yet going to the hat can be judged not a pitching motion. But I think FED is going to die on that hill, given the interps, caseplays, and actual POE one year in the book. 

[johnnyg08]

On 3/8/2024 at 7:45 AM, Senor Azul said:

Also relevant to your debate:

Current case plays 6.2.1 situations A, B

2008 online interpretations 6, 7, 8, 9

Yes! 

It actually goes back to 2007 and the interps have evolved over time too...which is kind of fun to research. 

Here are some nuggets from 2007-2008:

2008 Annual NFHS Interpretations: 

SITUATION 6: While on the pitcher's plate in the windup position, the pitcher has both hands at his side or both hands together in front of his body. He brings his pitching hand to his mouth and then distinctly wipes it off. RULING: This is an illegal pitch. Each runner on base would be awarded one base. If the bases were empty, a ball would be awarded to the batter. (6-1-2 Penalty)

SITUATION 7: While on the pitching plate in the stretch position, the pitcher has the ball in his glove hand and his pitching hand is at his side or has hands together in front of his body. He brings his pitching hand to his mouth, distinctly wipes it off and returns it to his side. RULING: This is an illegal pitch by the pitcher. A balk will be called if there are runners on base. If the bases are empty, a ball will be awarded to the batter. (6-1-3 Penalty)

SITUATION 8: While off the pitcher's plate, the pitcher goes to his mouth with his pitching hand, distinctly wipes it off and then legally engages the pitcher's plate. RULING: This is legal. (6-1, 6-2-1e)

SITUATION 9: With (a) the bases empty, or (b) runners on first base and second base, the pitcher goes to his mouth with his pitching hand while off the pitcher's plate, but does not wipe it off. He next places his pitching hand on the ball. RULING: In both (a) and (b), while off the pitching plate, the pitcher may request to have a new ball from the plate umpire with no penalty. If the pitcher, without having received a new ball from the plate umpire subsequently engages the pitcher's plate, a ball would be awarded to the batter. (6-2-1e Penalty)

2007 Rule change: 

Rule 6-2-1 now states that a ball will be called each time a pitcher brings his pitching hand in contact with his mouth, either without distinctly wiping off the pitching hand before it touches the ball or while in contact with the pitcher’s plate.

2007 Annual NFHS Interpretations:
SITUATION 7: While off the pitching plate, F1 goes to his mouth with his pitching hand. He distinctly wipes it off on his pants and then assumes a pitching position on the pitching plate. RULING: This is legal. There has been no violation by the pitcher. (6-2-1e)

SITUATION 8: While off the pitching plate, F1 goes to his mouth with his pitching hand. Without wiping his pitching hand, he gets on the pitching plate and assumes the windup position with his hands together in front of his body. RULING: A ball shall be called and added to the batter's count. (6-2-1e penalty)

SITUATION 9: While on the pitching plate in the windup position, the pitcher has both hands at his side. He brings his pitching hand to his mouth and then distinctly wipes it. RULING: This is legal and there has been no violation by the pitcher. (6-2-1e)

SITUATION 10: While on the pitching plate in the windup position, the pitcher has his glove hand in front of his body. He brings his pitching hand to his mouth and, without wiping it, brings his pitching hand to the ball, which is in the glove. RULING: This is a violation by the pitcher and a ball shall be called and added to the batter's count. (6-2-1e penalty)

SITUATION 11: While on the pitching plate in the windup position, the pitcher has his hands together in front of his body. He then brings his pitching hand to his mouth and returns it to his glove. RULING: This is an illegal pitch by the pitcher. A balk will be called if there are runners on base. If the bases are empty, a ball will be added to the batter's count. (6-1-2 penalty)

SITUATION 12: While on the pitching plate in the stretch position, the pitcher has the ball in his glove hand and his pitching hand is at his side. He brings his pitching hand to his mouth, distinctly wipes it and returns it to his side. RULING: This is legal and there has been no violation by the pitcher. (6-2-1e)

SITUATION 13: While on the pitching plate in the stretch position, the pitcher has the ball in his glove and his pitching hand at his side. He brings his pitching hand to his mouth and then becomes set with both hands together. RULING: This is a violation as the pitcher did not distinctly wipe his pitching hand after going with it to his mouth. A ball shall be added to the batter's count. (6-2-1e penalty)

SITUATION 14: While on the pitching plate in the stretch position, the pitcher becomes legally set with his hands together in front of his body. He then brings his hand to his mouth and returns it to his gloved hand. RULING: This is an illegal pitch by the pitcher. A balk will be called if there are runners on base. If the bases are empty, a ball will be added to the batter's count. (6-1-3 penalty)

[Richvee]

23 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Yet going to the hat can be judged not a pitching motion. But I think FED is going to die on that hill, given the interps, caseplays, and actual POE one year in the book. 

THIS is the inconsistency. 

[johnnyg08]

1 minute ago, Richvee said:

THIS is the inconsistency. 

I guess for me, I'm glad that this is something that we don't really see in our part of the country. 

[Richvee]

8 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I guess for me, I'm glad that this is something that we don't really see in our part of the country. 

We tend to have a lot of hand lickers around here. Preventive umpiring for me. A lick off the rubber and straight to the ball gets a time call and a new ball before he gets to the rubber. When it happens on the rubber no choice but to call it by the book. 

[The Man in Blue]

On 3/8/2024 at 8:49 AM, Jimurray said:

Yet going to the hat can be judged not a pitching motion. But I think FED is going to die on that hill, given the interps, caseplays, and actual POE one year in the book. 

I vaguely remember the hat conversation . . . can somebody point me in the right direction for that?

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

I vaguely remember the hat conversation . . . can somebody point me in the right direction for that?

I remember talking about it multiple times. Here’s the ruling.
6.1.2D casebook

 F1, while on the pitcher’s plate in either the windup or set position, (a) adjusts his cap, or (b) shakes off the signal with his glove, or (c) shakes off the signal with his head. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c) these are legal actions, provided these movements of the arms and legs were not associated with the pitch. (6-1-1,)

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

I remember talking about it multiple times. Here’s the ruling.
6.1.2D casebook

 F1, while on the pitcher’s plate in either the windup or set position, (a) adjusts his cap, or (b) shakes off the signal with his glove, or (c) shakes off the signal with his head. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c) these are legal actions, provided these movements of the arms and legs were not associated with the pitch. (6-1-1,)

That caseplay was a revision to a past one that had adjusting the hat a the start of a pitch and a balk, circa 2007 - 2010 approx. 

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

That caseplay was a revision to a past one that had adjusting the hat a the start of a pitch and a balk, circa 2007 - 2010 approx. 

correct. 2010 rule interps. 

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, Richvee said:

correct. 2010 rule interps. 

That’s okay, Rich... we’ve all encountered umpires who still have not been updated from 1995 interpretations. 

My opinion on this is that they’ve made this whole thing way too complicated. If the ball’s status is Dead, then any “infraction” should be a “Hey! Don’t do that!”, and exchange the baseball. If the ball is alive, and the F1 is off the rubber, and performs an “infraction” without legal correction, then it should be, “Time! Hey! Don’t do that! That’s your warning!” 

Any infraction (of this go-to-mouth variety) performed on the rubber without legal correction should be a Ball penalty, not a Balk penalty. 

The balk penalty is what intensifies the complexity. It’s a very petty Balk, the epitome of ticky-tac. Coaches jump all over (possible) infractions, so as to get a cheap base award or run; equally, many of us are reserved about calling such a cheap Balk (“No, Coach, I have him stopping enough.”). 

[Richvee]

You’re right. But my high school experience is this is the one balk rule coaches are aware of. They jump on the “going to mouth on the rubber balk” like no one’s business.