Pickoff at 1st balk?

[ErichKeane]

So I had this happen in a 10U NFHS-rule game last night.  I called a balk, and the coach wasn't happy about it, but we went on and they didn't try it again.  Some dad in the stands went on about 'he never commited to the plate', but I have no idea what he was on about.... Anyway, I was quite sure at the time, but am less sure now that I'm re-looking at the rulebook.

 

RHP comes set.  Does a high knee kick, holds it briefly (when R1 takes his secondary), then swings the knee around the front to step towards 1st and throws to the base.  He was very clearly moving 'forward' and then stepped over to 1st.

I told the coach I had him on balk 2x (once for the pause, once for the moving forward then going to 1st), but the first was a bit of an excuse.  The second part is the one I'm less sure about.  Thoughts?

[maven]

Yes, this is a balk. Setting aside whether he stopped, when a RHP picks up his leg and brings it straight up, he has committed to pitching to the batter (or, with R2, picking/feinting to 2B).

It's a step balk, and fails the test of "stepping and throwing directly to a base." Only a LHP can pick up his knee and still have an option to pick to 1B or pitch.

Same ruling in all codes.

[noumpere]

21 minutes ago, maven said:

Yes, this is a balk. Ignoring the stop, when a RHP picks up his leg and brings it straight up, he has committed to pitching to the batter (or, with R2, picking/feinting to 2B).

 

Or throwing to third (or feinting to third in some codes)

[maven]

Just now, noumpere said:

Or throwing to third (or feinting to third in some codes)

Right.

I should also add: RHP can pick up his foot and knee, but it has to include a simultaneous turn to 1B, so that it clearly satisfies the requirement to step directly to a base.

This move is slow and obvious, which is why pro RHP use a jump turn or jab step.

[BrainFreeze]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Right.

I should also add: RHP can pick up his foot and knee, but it has to include a simultaneous turn to 1B, so that it clearly satisfies the requirement to step directly to a base.

This move is slow and obvious, which is why pro RHP use a jump turn or jab step.

OK - I read that and I thought, WHAT??

But after another read, it sounds like you're describing a jump turn/jab step.  Yes? 

Because anything that isn't a jump turn from an RHP is a balk.  

We're on the same page, right?  

 

Tangent:

I had the privilege of a "baseball guy" come to one of our practices, and he tried to teach our pitchers a "two-step" jump turn:

1. Pivot foot comes off the pitcher's plate and steps towards third in front of the pitcher's plate.  
2. Free foot steps towards first base
3. Pitcher throws.

When 1 and 2 are done together and quickly, it's a jump turn.  He wasn't teaching together and quickly though -- it was a two-step move that was almost like a dance step.  You could count it out -- step, step, throw.  The pitcher would disengage the pitcher's plate by stepping forward.  Then, free foot would step towards 1B. ( I hope I'm describing it well enough. )

I was an AC on the team, so I kept to myself.  I told our HC, hey that's not legal that's a balk.  HC asked "baseball guy" and he got irate, swearing up and down it was legal. 

"Baseball" guy was a youth coach -- definitely not an umpire. 

[ErichKeane]

11 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

OK - I read that and I thought, WHAT??

But after another read, it sounds like you're describing a jump turn/jab step.  Yes? 

Because anything that isn't a jump turn from an RHP is a balk.  

We're on the same page, right?  

 

Tangent:

I had the privilege of a "baseball guy" come to one of our practices, and he tried to teach our pitchers a "two-step" jump turn:

1. Pivot foot comes off the pitcher's plate and steps towards third in front of the pitcher's plate.  
2. Free foot steps towards first base
3. Pitcher throws.

When 1 and 2 are done together and quickly, it's a jump turn.  He wasn't teaching together and quickly though -- it was a two-step move that was almost like a dance step.  You could count it out -- step, step, throw.  The pitcher would disengage the pitcher's plate by stepping forward.  Then, free foot would step towards 1B. ( I hope I'm describing it well enough. )

I was an AC on the team, so I kept to myself.  I told our HC, hey that's not legal that's a balk.  HC asked "baseball guy" and he got irate, swearing up and down it was legal. 

"Baseball" guy was a youth coach -- definitely not an umpire. 

No, it wasn't a jump turn, but you don't have to jump turn to throw to 1B as a RHP.  It is the 'easy' way to do it, but you can definitely step behind you towards 1B without jumping.

[maven]

28 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

Because anything that isn't a jump turn from an RHP is a balk.  

This statement is incorrect, even if amended to include the jab step.

It is legal for a RHP to step and throw to 1B from the rubber. It starts like the "outside move" to 2B, but stops at 1B. The free foot has to start toward 1B immediately, which turns the hips and shoulders.

It follows that lifting the knee straight up, drawing the foot back toward 2B, without turning the hips and shoulders, and then picking to 1B is a balk, as discussed.

As I said, it's slow and obvious, which is why pro RHP never use it.

[maven]

I'll also mention that a quick glance at YouTube pickoff videos shows a substantial percentage still claiming that F1 may pick to 1B only after disengaging. Ugh.

[BrainFreeze]

@maven and @ErichKeane, you're saying that an RHP, after coming set, can pick up the free foot, and without disengaging, step towards 1B in a pick-off attempt? 

I understand that's different than what I said originally.

Let me amend what I said originally:  Once the RHP is set, anything that isn't a jump turn to 1st from an RHP is a balk. 

 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 145):

It is a balk if a pitcher who is in contact...

Stretch Position:  The pitcher is committed to pitch when after coming set, he shows movement toward home plate. Such movement includes leaning his body toward home plate, and beginning or rotating his free leg toward home plate...

And it is most definitely a balk when a pitcher suspends his leg during his delivery after the set. In fact I just saw one called a couple of days ago when a White Sox pitcher was called for the violation against the Oakland A's.

I posted a complete proof of this with citations from the Jaksa/Roder and Wendelstedt manuals and a FED case play.

Ask the Umpire forum in a thread titled Pitching dated June 29, 2022.

[ErichKeane]

10 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 145):

It is a balk if a pitcher who is in contact...

Stretch Position:  The pitcher is committed to pitch when after coming set, he shows movement toward home plate. Such movement includes leaning his body toward home plate, and beginning or rotating his free leg toward home plate...

And it is most definitely a balk when a pitcher suspends his leg during his delivery after the set. In fact I just saw one called a couple of days ago when a White Sox pitcher was called for the violation against the Oakland A's.

I posted a complete proof of this with citations from the Jaksa/Roder and Wendelstedt manuals and a FED case play.

Ask the Umpire forum in a thread titled Pitching dated June 29, 2022.

Thanks!  That is really helpful too. 

 

13 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

@maven and @ErichKeane, you're saying that an RHP, after coming set, can pick up the free foot, and without disengaging, step towards 1B in a pick-off attempt? 

I understand that's different than what I said originally.

Let me amend what I said originally:  Once the RHP is set, anything that isn't a jump turn to 1st from an RHP is a balk. 

 

Yes, that is exactly what we're saying.  Once a RHP is set, he CAN do a step to 1B without it being a balk (and not a jump turn) so long as he doesn't do the 'movement toward home plate'.

 

[BrainFreeze]

Here's the link to the thread that Senor Azul mentions.

Thank you for the reference @Senor Azul, the NFHS case play is informative.

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

 

Let me amend what I said originally:  Once the RHP is set, anything that isn't a jump turn to 1st from an RHP is a balk. 

 

Still wrong.

 

RHP F1 can just turn behind him and throw to first.  And, of course, the free foot must come off the ground to do this.  But, the move mist be continuous and immediate (one definition of "direct").  Picking the foot up toward the balance point restricts a pitcher from throwing to the base behind him; making a move wihtout lifting the foot to the balance point is legal.

[maven]

14 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

Let me amend what I said originally:  Once the RHP is set, anything that isn't a jump turn to 1st from an RHP is a balk. 

Still not correct.

The pitching restrictions apply to F1 once he engages the rubber. Nothing turns on whether he has come set (though of course he can't "no stop" balk after he comes set).

This isn't really worth explaining much, because the legal move I'm trying to describe is one that most umpires never see. 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.26, p. 118):

It is legal for a right-handed pitcher to begin a pickoff move to first base by first moving his pivot foot in the direction of third base provided that he makes a legal step toward first base with his non-pivot foot before throwing there and provided that the move is continuous and without interruption. A pitcher who makes such a pickoff move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BrainFreeze said:

 

 

 

I had the privilege of a "baseball guy" come to one of our practices, and he tried to teach our pitchers a "two-step" jump turn:

1. Pivot foot comes off the pitcher's plate and steps towards third in front of the pitcher's plate.  
2. Free foot steps towards first base
3. Pitcher throws.

 

That's referred to as a "jab step". It can be done without any jump. It's usually done quickly. The pivot foot has to go toward 3B and it doesn't matter where it lands in relation to the front, on or in back of the rubber.

[BrainFreeze]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

That's referred to as a "jab step". It can be done without any jump. It's usually done quickly. The pivot foot has to go toward 3B and it doesn't matter where it lands in relation to the front, on or in back of the rubber.

Thank you for clarifying. 

Please refer to @Senor Azul's comment directly above yours, the jab step needs to be done in a continuous motion without interruption.

If it's not done quickly, it can easily be a balk, and unfortunately, that's what was being taught (incorrectly) to these young players. 

 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 147):

Following are two types of steps that are legal:

Jab step (of the pivot foot):  In cases of a right-handed pitcher throwing to first, or a left-handed pitcher throwing to third, or any pitcher throwing to second, a pitcher can take a "jab" or "stutter" step with his pivot foot before stepping to the base with his free foot. The motion of the "stutter" step and the resulting step of the free foot must be fluid and continuous; if the two motions are not continuous, there is a balk. Of course, the latter step must bring the free foot into the air and replace it on the ground in a completely different spot that is closer to the pickoff base.

[BrainFreeze]

4 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

So I had this happen in a 10U NFHS-rule game last night.  I called a balk, and the coach wasn't happy about it, but we went on and they didn't try it again.  Some dad in the stands went on about 'he never commited to the plate', but I have no idea what he was on about.... Anyway, I was quite sure at the time, but am less sure now that I'm re-looking at the rulebook.

 

RHP comes set.  Does a high knee kick, holds it briefly (when R1 takes his secondary), then swings the knee around the front to step towards 1st and throws to the base.  He was very clearly moving 'forward' and then stepped over to 1st.

I told the coach I had him on balk 2x (once for the pause, once for the moving forward then going to 1st), but the first was a bit of an excuse.  The second part is the one I'm less sure about.  Thoughts?

Back to the original topic.  My thoughts, without tangent:

RHP comes set.  He can step off backwards, pitch to home, or execute a jab step / jump turn pickoff move. 

The pause could easily be a balk, but I would be careful balking here.  Most of us can judge well enough whether or not a pitcher has "frozen" in a position to call the balk.  Sometimes, the pitcher can come very close to freezing but the are still moving slightly.  You said you had a balk from the pause, so you saw it and it's hard to second-guess the call there. 

Let's assume that he didn't pause, but swung his leg in the air to first.  Total balk.  All day, every ruleset. 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, RHP in the set position cannot lift his free foot and throw to first.  <-- see that period?  That means period.  No exceptions. 

Good call. 

[SH0102]

2 hours ago, maven said:

I'll also mention that a quick glance at YouTube pickoff videos shows a substantial percentage still claiming that F1 may pick to 1B only after disengaging. Ugh.

To be fair, in High-A they do have to disengage. It was a new rule change last year (not sure if they kept it for this year or not). Even a lefty must disengage to throw, they can’t lift and step.  
 

But that was exclusive to high A so I doubt the you tube videos were talking about that

[BrainFreeze]

3 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

To be fair, in High-A they do have to disengage. It was a new rule change last year (not sure if they kept it for this year or not). Even a lefty must disengage to throw, they can’t lift and step.  
 

But that was exclusive to high A so I doubt the you tube videos were talking about that

You're misinformed. 

Please provide a source for that? 

YouTube is not a source.

[SH0102]

13 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

You're misinformed. 

Please provide a source for that? 

YouTube is not a source.

lol, I’m really not.  I went to dinner with two high A umpires after a game and we were talking about it. The one was from the same Org I am in, so we all went to watch him, then went to dinner after the game.  It was one of the rules they were testing in minors to encourage more action , and it was only in high A.

But I am most def not misinformed

 

[BrainFreeze]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Still not correct.

The pitching restrictions apply to F1 once he engages the rubber. Nothing turns on whether he has come set (though of course he can't "no stop" balk after he comes set).

This isn't really worth explaining much, because the legal move I'm trying to describe is one that most umpires never see. 

This response is pretty disappointing. 

It's not worth explaining much, because the legal move you're not bothering to describe doesn't exist. 

Pitcher is required to step directly towards a base when making a throw to 1B.

It's physically impossible for a right-handed pitcher to pick up their free foot and step directly towards 1B. 

If any umpire thinks it's possible, I would love to see a video of said umpire on the mound actually trying it.  Should be good for a giggle. 

Hopefully anyone that tries it will understand that the RHP's free foot must move towards HP on it's way towards 1B.  It's not a direct step -- that's why it's a balk.  <-- See that period again?  That means period.  Full stop.  Balk.  All day.  Every day.  Every ruleset.  Everywhere.

 

[ErichKeane]

Just now, SH0102 said:

lol, I’m really not.  I went to dinner with two high A umpires after a game and we were talking about it

Could this be one of those trial rules that MiLB is trying out in only a certain league? It's an... Interesting idea, but poor lefties, giving away their best advantage:D

[BrainFreeze]

5 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

lol, I’m really not.  I went to dinner with two high A umpires after a game and we were talking about it. The one was from the same Org I am in, so we all went to watch him, then went to dinner after the game.  It was one of the rules they were testing in minors to encourage more action , and it was only in high A.

But I am most def not misinformed

 

My very sincere apologies.  There was an experimental rule change for High-A in 2021.

https://www.milb.com/press-release/minor-league-rule-changes