Pickoffs

[Guest Trout]

Hello there!

I have some questions about pickoffs:

1. from windup position the pitcher must step off (disengage) before throwing to a baseman?
2. for lefty there is one more move to 1B? Lefties can cheat by stepping at a 45 degree between home and first base and still throw to 1B. But the right handers can do the same to 1B?
3. can the right handers do the same to 3B or 2B?
4. can the lefty do the same to 2B or 3B?
5. What are the rules in manual about this moves?

 

[maven]

1. The answer depends on the code. In most codes, it is legal to pick from the windup, so disengaging is not required. In FED, it is not legal, so F1 must disengage first.
2. The rules do not distinguish between LH and RH pitchers. Both are required to step ahead of the throw to 1B. In practice, LHP can take advantage of already facing 1B and step more toward a 45° angle, but if a RHP did a jump turn and the free foot landed at the 45° line, that would come to the same thing. The same provision (stepping ahead of the throw) is required for any pickoff at any base.
3. Not sure what this question is asking
4. Nor this one.
5. The rules are in the rule book. Umpire manuals have interpretations (such as what counts as a step toward a base). Neither one is a "coaches guide to pickoffs," and neither contains an elaborate enumeration of legal and illegal moves (though both contain some examples of each).

[Guest Trout]

6 hours ago, maven said:

1. The answer depends on the code. In most codes, it is legal to pick from the windup, so disengaging is not required. In FED, it is not legal, so F1 must disengage first.
2. The rules do not distinguish between LH and RH pitchers. Both are required to step ahead of the throw to 1B. In practice, LHP can take advantage of already facing 1B and step more toward a 45° angle, but if a RHP did a jump turn and the free foot landed at the 45° line, that would come to the same thing. The same provision (stepping ahead of the throw) is required for any pickoff at any base.
3. Not sure what this question is asking
4. Nor this one.
5. The rules are in the rule book. Umpire manuals have interpretations (such as what counts as a step toward a base). Neither one is a "coaches guide to pickoffs," and neither contains an elaborate enumeration of legal and illegal moves (though both contain some examples of each).

1. MLB rules.
2. Can RHP take advantage of facing 3B?
3. RHP can lift his leg, land the free foot toward 2B or 3B and then throw to pickoff ? Like LHP does with 1B?
4. Can LHP pickoff to 2B and 3B? What moves must he do to pickoff? I'd want to know when a pitcher begin his motion of pitch, lifitng his leg, can he not pitch to home but try a pickoff to any bases?
5. From set position can a pitcher lift his leg and then step to a base and chase the runner?

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Guest Trout said:

1. MLB rules.
2. Can RHP take advantage of facing 3B?
3. RHP can lift his leg, land the free foot toward 2B or 3B and then throw to pickoff ? Like LHP does with 1B?
4. Can LHP pickoff to 2B and 3B? What moves must he do to pickoff? I'd want to know when a pitcher begin his motion of pitch, lifting his leg, can he not pitch to home but try a pickoff to any bases?
5. From set position can a pitcher lift his leg and then step to a base and chase the runner?

1. answered

2. Yes -- just like the LH at first

3. Yes. So can the LH pitcher

4. RH and LH pitcher are the same.  If the free foot goes behind the rubber (the specific wording might vary some by code) F1 must pitch or throw to second -- he cannot throw the the base being faced.  If the foot starts forward, he must pitch.

5. OBR:  NOT to first or third -- a feint to these bases in illegal.  He can do this to second.  RH or LH pitcher.  Day game or night game.

[Guest Trout]

4. So as long as the pitcher's free foot doesn't go behind the rubber can RHP or LHP throw to any base? Instead if the free foot goes behind the rubber must pitch to home? Or to 2B?

5. I saw a video where a youtuber explains inside move and there after he made inside move, he didn't throw to second base but, holding the ball in his hand, chased the runner? Is it regular?

this 8.35 and 9.05 minutes:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj48tPTyLoA

So could you do the inside move and then chasing and throw out of the mound to a infielder or even tagged him out?

I think a pitcher must step off the rubber to tag a runner out himself, no?

So lifting leg, for both rhp and lhp, and then landing free foot to a base is a legal pickoff moves to any bases?

I'd like to know until a pitcher can legally throw to a base to make a pickoff attempts? Only once the free foot has landed towards home he must pitch and may not attempt to a pickoff, right?

 

 

[noumpere]

Before lifting the leg, the pitcher can step and throw to any base.

When the leg is lifted, the pitcher must throw to the base being faced, throw (or feint) to second, or pitch.

When the foot crosses the runner, the pitcher must throw or feint to second, or pitch.

When the leg moves forward, the pitcher must pitch.

 

The rest has been answered.

[Guest Trout]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Before lifting the leg, the pitcher can step and throw to any base.

When the leg is lifted, the pitcher must throw to the base being faced, throw (or feint) to second, or pitch.

When the foot crosses the runner, the pitcher must throw or feint to second, or pitch.

When the leg moves forward, the pitcher must pitch.

 

The rest has been answered.

But after lifting the leg? I think it is legal.

What about video I posted before?

[maven]

I watched the first 2 minutes of the video, which describes what coaches call the "inside" and "outside" move to 2B. As he was doing them, they are both legal, with or without an actual throw to 2B (same in all codes).

5 hours ago, Guest Trout said:

So as long as the pitcher's free foot doesn't go behind the rubber can RHP or LHP throw to any base? Instead if the free foot goes behind the rubber must pitch to home? Or to 2B?

No, as noumpere said. Once the free foot is lifted, any pitcher may still pick to the base he's facing, pick/feint to 2B, or pitch to the batter.

Once the free foot goes behind the rubber, the option to pick to the base he's facing goes away.

Picking to the base behind him is (in modern times) done only with a jump turn or jab step.

5 hours ago, Guest Trout said:

I think a pitcher must step off the rubber to tag a runner out himself, no?

Well, yes and no. The rules don't require this, but biophysics does (his arm can't stretch 30 feet to where the runner is).

Let me put this in coach-speak: when the pitcher does the inside move and holds the ball, umpires consider this feinting a throw to 2B, which is legal. When the pitcher then moves off the rubber toward the runner, umpires consider this stepping off (disengaging). At that point, the pitcher counts as another infielder under the rules, and may do anything an infielder may do, including tagging a runner.

5 hours ago, Guest Trout said:

So lifting leg, for both rhp and lhp, and then landing free foot to a base is a legal pickoff moves to any bases?

From the set, if F1 lifts his knee, as has been said multiple times already, he may not pick to the base behind him without balking. He has violated the requirement to step and throw directly to a base. 

That said, when F1 picks to the base behind him, he does have to pick up his feet in a jump turn or jab step, but the motion looks nothing like the start of a pitch. By interpretation, the jump turn counts as a move from the rubber, whether or not the pivot comes off the rubber during the move.

[Guest Trout]

2 hours ago, maven said:

I watched the first 2 minutes of the video, which describes what coaches call the "inside" and "outside" move to 2B. As he was doing them, they are both legal, with or without an actual throw to 2B (same in all codes).

No, as noumpere said. Once the free foot is lifted, any pitcher may still pick to the base he's facing, pick/feint to 2B, or pitch to the batter.

Once the free foot goes behind the rubber, the option to pick to the base he's facing goes away.

Picking to the base behind him is (in modern times) done only with a jump turn or jab step.

Well, yes and no. The rules don't require this, but biophysics does (his arm can't stretch 30 feet to where the runner is).

Let me put this in coach-speak: when the pitcher does the inside move and holds the ball, umpires consider this feinting a throw to 2B, which is legal. When the pitcher then moves off the rubber toward the runner, umpires consider this stepping off (disengaging). At that point, the pitcher counts as another infielder under the rules, and may do anything an infielder may do, including tagging a runner.

From the set, if F1 lifts his knee, as has been said multiple times already, he may not pick to the base behind him without balking. He has violated the requirement to step and throw directly to a base. 

That said, when F1 picks to the base behind him, he does have to pick up his feet in a jump turn or jab step, but the motion looks nothing like the start of a pitch. By interpretation, the jump turn counts as a move from the rubber, whether or not the pivot comes off the rubber during the move.

You have to see of the video minutes from 8.35 to 9.05 there is a strange action. So can a RHP, facing 3B, lift leg and then throw to 3B for a pickoff attempt?  Or could a RHP, facing 3B, lift leg, turn around on pivot foot and now, facing 1B, throw to 1B? I am really confuse about pickoff attempt.

[maven]

41 minutes ago, Guest Trout said:

You have to see of the video minutes from 8.35 to 9.05 there is a strange action.

At that time in the video, he is NOT demonstrating a move to 3B. He's still talking about the "inside move" to 2B, and the move he's demonstrating is legal. Without further specification of "strange" I can't say much more (it's not strange to me).

41 minutes ago, Guest Trout said:

So can a RHP, facing 3B, lift leg and then throw to 3B for a pickoff attempt?

Yes. He can do the "reverse Pettitte," if that's a helpful way to think about it: Andy Pettitte (Yankees LHP) had a great, (usually? sometimes?) legal move to 1B. A RHP, picking to 3B, could do the same move. (And, at least 2 of us in this thread have said as much repeatedly.)

41 minutes ago, Guest Trout said:

Or could a RHP, facing 3B, lift leg, turn around on pivot foot and now, facing 1B, throw to 1B?

No. The reason is that, once a RHP lifts his leg and knee towards or to the balance point, he can no longer step directly to 1B, which is the requirement for a legal pickoff. That's why pro RHP all use the jump turn, where the free foot does move toward 1B.

A LHP can lift his leg and still be moving his foot and leg in a step to 1B without turning his body. That's why a LHP can lift the knee and pick to 1B, but a RHP cannot do so. And the reverse is true at 3B, and for the same reasons.

As for your confusion, I suspect that it stems from your only partial grasp of the step requirement. Not only does F1 have to step toward the base to which he's throwing, he must step directly to the base. When a RHP lifts his knee and then tries to pick, he has violated that part of the requirement and balked.

[Guest Trout]

15 hours ago, maven said:

At that time in the video, he is NOT demonstrating a move to 3B. He's still talking about the "inside move" to 2B, and the move he's demonstrating is legal. Without further specification of "strange" I can't say much more (it's not strange to me).

Yes. He can do the "reverse Pettitte," if that's a helpful way to think about it: Andy Pettitte (Yankees LHP) had a great, (usually? sometimes?) legal move to 1B. A RHP, picking to 3B, could do the same move. (And, at least 2 of us in this thread have said as much repeatedly.)

No. The reason is that, once a RHP lifts his leg and knee towards or to the balance point, he can no longer step directly to 1B, which is the requirement for a legal pickoff. That's why pro RHP all use the jump turn, where the free foot does move toward 1B.

A LHP can lift his leg and still be moving his foot and leg in a step to 1B without turning his body. That's why a LHP can lift the knee and pick to 1B, but a RHP cannot do so. And the reverse is true at 3B, and for the same reasons.

As for your confusion, I suspect that it stems from your only partial grasp of the step requirement. Not only does F1 have to step toward the base to which he's throwing, he must step directly to the base. When a RHP lifts his knee and then tries to pick, he has violated that part of the requirement and balked.

Ok, I get it. Now about that video, I am referring precisely when he explains inside move, in that case he doesn't step off legally the rubber so how could he chase the runner ? To step off legally it is required that the pivot foot steps off firstly from the rubber but there this doesn't happen, am I right?

Finally, technically would the jumping for pickoff not be a balk because, at the moment, the pitcher would turn his shoulders?

But when there is a jump turn should the pivot foot remain in contact with the rubber or not?

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, Guest Trout said:

Ok, I get it. Now about that video, I am referring precisely when he explains inside move, in that case he doesn't step off legally the rubber so how could he chase the runner ? To step off legally it is required that the pivot foot steps off firstly from the rubber but there this doesn't happen, am I right?

Finally, technically would the jumping for pickoff not be a balk because, at the moment, the pitcher would turn his shoulders?

But when there is a jump turn should the pivot foot remain in contact with the rubber or not?

A) You are correct that to step off legally, the pitcher must move the pivot foot first.  But, this is not a step off -- it's a feint.  And, after the feint, the pitcher can break contact with the rubber by continuing toward the runner (or in almost any other way practical).

b) Yes, a jump turn and a jab step are technically against the very literal reading of the rules.  But, they are allowed moves.

iii) Huh?  How can a pitcher "jump" and "remain in contact" at the same time?  It doesn't mater where the pivot foot lands.  It's *considered* a move from the rubber, even though the pivot foot does not remain in contact (almost by definition) throughout the move.

[Tborze]

5 hours ago, Guest Trout said:

Ok, I get it. Now about that video, I am referring precisely when he explains inside move, in that case he doesn't step off legally the rubber so how could he chase the runner ? To step off legally it is required that the pivot foot steps off firstly from the rubber but there this doesn't happen, am I right?

Finally, technically would the jumping for pickoff not be a balk because, at the moment, the pitcher would turn his shoulders?

But when there is a jump turn should the pivot foot remain in contact with the rubber or not?

During a jump turn, you are still considered to be engaged with the rubber. The difference is, he doesn’t have to throw to 2nd, he can feint to 2nd.  In this case, he has disengaged the rubber which is why he can “chase the runner “.
In OBR you cannot feint to 3rd (legal in HS). So, on a jump turn, you must complete the throw to 1st AND 3rd or it would be a balk. 

Turning the shoulders is only a requirement after coming “set” and before any move which requires him to pitch, attempt a pickoff or to step off.  

 

[Guest Trout]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

A) You are correct that to step off legally, the pitcher must move the pivot foot first.  But, this is not a step off -- it's a feint.  And, after the feint, the pitcher can break contact with the rubber by continuing toward the runner (or in almost any other way practical).

b) Yes, a jump turn and a jab step are technically against the very literal reading of the rules.  But, they are allowed moves.

iii) Huh?  How can a pitcher "jump" and "remain in contact" at the same time?  It doesn't mater where the pivot foot lands.  It's *considered* a move from the rubber, even though the pivot foot does not remain in contact (almost by definition) throughout the move.

A) but how far could the pitcher approach to the runner? Could he tagged runner out himself? What is the limit?

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Guest Trout said:

A) but how far could the pitcher approach to the runner? Could he tagged runner out himself? What is the limit?

From an earlier post by Maven:

When the pitcher then moves off the rubber toward the runner, umpires consider this stepping off (disengaging). At that point, the pitcher counts as another infielder under the rules, and may do anything an infielder may do, including tagging a runner.

[Guest Trout]

14 hours ago, noumpere said:

From an earlier post by Maven:

When the pitcher then moves off the rubber toward the runner, umpires consider this stepping off (disengaging). At that point, the pitcher counts as another infielder under the rules, and may do anything an infielder may do, including tagging a runner.

Ok, so RHP try an inside move (also with a jump turn?) to 2B but he doesn't throw and run towards 2B to tag him out, so umpire considers this a feint, and the pticher, without step off the pivot feet firstly, chase runner in 2B, but is it technically a balk?

I mean feinting is considered like a legal stepping off although he didn't step off legally?

Is his unconventional stepping off legal with any base? Or with only base where a pitcher can feint?

In OBR is legal pickoff from windup so what are the moves there?

 

[noumpere]

All of that has been answered before.

[Guest Trout]

So to recap

To step off you need to step pivot foot first 

Or

Feinting to 2B, both for inside move or jump turn, is an other way to step off from the rubber without stepping his pivot foot off first,  so if a pitcher feints to 2B he is considered stepped off ergo could the pitcher feint to first?

[noumpere]

4 minutes ago, Guest Trout said:

So to recap

To step off you need to step pivot foot first 

Or

Feinting to 2B, both for inside move or jump turn, is an other way to step off from the rubber without stepping his pivot foot off first,  so if a pitcher feints to 2B he is considered stepped off ergo could the pitcher feint to first?

Feinting to 2B, both for inside move or jump turn, is an other way to break contact with the rubber without stepping his pivot foot off first,  so if a pitcher feints to 2B and breaks contact with the rubber (which in practice happens 99% of the time)  he is considered disengaged  ergo could the pitcher feint to first?

 

FIFY.

[Guest Tout]

So breaking contact with the rubber = legal stepping off ?

I don't understand this

To step off legally is needed to step pivot feet off back, am I right?

Theoretically every time R1 breaks the contact he become a infielder?

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Guest Tout said:

So breaking contact with the rubber = legal stepping off ?

I don't understand this

To step off legally is needed to step pivot feet off back, am I right?

Theoretically every time R1 breaks the contact he become an infielder?

Not every time. We consider jab step and jump turn contact breaks as still engaged. But I asked your question at a Jim Evans clinic in 2006. Breaking contact with a step to a base you feint to is considered a legal disengage. 

[maven]

48 minutes ago, Guest Tout said:

So breaking contact with the rubber = legal stepping off ?

I don't understand this

To step off legally is needed to step pivot feet off back, am I right?

Theoretically every time R1 breaks the contact he become a infielder?

Your running the pitching restrictions together improperly.

When F1 is engaged and in set position, he may legally do one of 3 things:

1. Pitch to the batter
2. Step and throw to a base (or feint a throw to 2B)
3. Disengage

To do #3 legally, he must pick up his pivot foot and set it down in a step behind the rubber prior to doing anything else (though the "prior to" clause gets enforced loosely).

But if he does #2 legally, his pivot will usually come off the rubber naturally. This is a legal consequence of a legal pickoff (or legal feint). 

The requirements that apply to option #3 do not apply to other options. 

[SH0102]

Guys, this is the same exact thing that happened in the “spam” questions…just relentless recapping and rephrasing same.  Stop feeding into it

[Guest Trout]

13 hours ago, maven said:

Your running the pitching restrictions together improperly.

When F1 is engaged and in set position, he may legally do one of 3 things:

1. Pitch to the batter
2. Step and throw to a base (or feint a throw to 2B)
3. Disengage

To do #3 legally, he must pick up his pivot foot and set it down in a step behind the rubber prior to doing anything else (though the "prior to" clause gets enforced loosely).

But if he does #2 legally, his pivot will usually come off the rubber naturally. This is a legal consequence of a legal pickoff (or legal feint). 

The requirements that apply to option #3 do not apply to other options. 

But technically every time a pitcher attempts to pickoff this happens. So to 3B and 1B after you step you must throw, so in this case are you considered disengange? Only when a pitcher feints R1 has his pivot come off rubber but not backward but forward. So when feinting to 3B was legal this is a legal disengangement?

In this case, R1 feints to 2B and then could he feint also to 1B?

[Guest Trout]

15 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Not every time. We consider jab step and jump turn contact breaks as still engaged. But I asked your question at a Jim Evans clinic in 2006. Breaking contact with a step to a base you feint to is considered a legal disengage. 

but inside move?

[Guest Trout]

The problem is: in rules book there is written so

The pitcher may disengage the rubber, but must do so properly. He must step backward off the rubber with his pivot foot. Improperly disengaging the rubber is a balk. However, once he has disengaged the rubber, he is now a fielder, not a pitcher, and all of the restrictions placed on the pitcher are no longer in effect.

But feinting to a base is a legal disengage, so it is not a balk,  I am so confused.

Feinting to 3B, when and where it is legal, or 2B how could it not be a balk?

Sorry for my incompetence, but is there and rules to help me please?