Force Out or Tag Out

[Guest Osan Baseball]

Men on 1st and 3rd.  2 outs.

Batter hits a 1 hop ground ball up the middle near 2nd base.  Shortstop comes over, fields the ball.  Man on 3rd runs home and scores.  Man on 1st base runs to 2nd base.  Shortstop gets the ball and throws to first base. First baseman drops the throw, so hitter is safe at first.  But, while this is all going on, the man running to 2nd gets to 2nd base and touches the base, but thinks that the shortstop caught a pop fly, so then starts running back to 1st base.  He doesn't make it all the way back to first because people are yelling at him to go back to 2nd..  The 1st baseman throws the ball to 2nd base before that runner gets back to 2nd base.  Play was called a force out at 2nd base, and run was taken off the board.

 

Question #1 - is it still a force out at 2nd base if the runner already touched 2nd  base before heading back towards 1st?

Question #2 - does the run count?  The runner crossed home plate at least 5-10 seconds before the final out was recorded.   

Does the fact that the runner was already on 2nd base mean the run then counts because that part of the play was completed before the process of the out was recorded?

 

[noumpere]

Ignore the previous two answers.  When R1 retreated toward first, he reinstated the force.

 

This is a force out and no run scores.

 

Here's the OBR wording -- it applies to all codes.

However, if the forced runner, after touching the next
base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last
occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again
be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is
forced

[LC Ump]

Another way to say things, maybe better, and on which we agree!

[LC Ump]

And @noumpere says we're wrong and I can see why. R1's retreat back to 1b would reinstate the force and, as he says, a 3rd out on force play would then negate the run. Apologies. Thanks for setting me straight!

[beerguy55]

@noumpere is correct, the others are not.   Once a runner retreats to their previous base the force is reinstated.  And all the scoring rules around forced runners and the third out are reinstated as well.

Think of it this way...where is R1 going to go?  He can't go to first.   He can't just stop between first and second and have the pitcher throw to the next batter.  He is "forced" to go the second, because there is a batter/runner behind him.

[beerguy55]

A clever ploy by a savvy batter-runner would be to step off the base and try to entice F3 to tag him instead of going after R1...making the third out a time play (also removes the force on R1).

Another option would be to have the batter-runner, who has reached first base, immediately run to the dugout to get called for abandonment.

In either scenario that would allow the run to score.

[834k3r]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

A clever ploy by a savvy batter-runner would be to step off the base and try to entice F3 to tag him instead of going after R1...making the third out a time play (also removes the force on R1).

Another option would be to have the batter-runner, who has reached first base, immediately run to the dugout to get called for abandonment.

In either scenario that would allow the run to score.

That's some 4D chess right there...

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.40, p. 69):  … A base runner being called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runner(s).

And just to reinforce this principle here are two other citations—one from the 2016 BRD and one posted here in 2018 by Mr. Jimurray.

Official Interpretation: Rice for Wendelstedt School:  The definition of a force play is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. The force is removed if the forced runner touches his next base or a following runner is put out before he reaches his next base. Simply put, if a runner is put out for any reason prior to the force being removed, it is a force out. Abandonment would be no different. (2016 BRD, section 453, p. 301)

Play:  R1, R3, two outs, no count, tie score. The batter knocks a base hit. R3 scores on the play, but R1 runs off the field to celebrate believing the game is immediately over and is called out for abandoning his effort to run the bases. Ruling:  Since R1 is called out for the third out on a force play, no run scores. (Adapted from the 2013 WRIM, play P489, p. 259)

2017 MLBUM, new Interp #31: "A baserunner being called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runners."

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.40, p. 69):  … A base runner being called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runner(s).

And just to reinforce this principle here are two other citations—one from the 2016 BRD and one posted here in 2018 by Mr. Jimurray.

Official Interpretation: Rice for Wendelstedt School:  The definition of a force play is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. The force is removed if the forced runner touches his next base or a following runner is put out before he reaches his next base. Simply put, if a runner is put out for any reason prior to the force being removed, it is a force out. Abandonment would be no different. (2016 BRD, section 453, p. 301)

Play:  R1, R3, two outs, no count, tie score. The batter knocks a base hit. R3 scores on the play, but R1 runs off the field to celebrate believing the game is immediately over and is called out for abandoning his effort to run the bases. Ruling:  Since R1 is called out for the third out on a force play, no run scores. (Adapted from the 2013 WRIM, play P489, p. 259)

2017 MLBUM, new Interp #31: "A baserunner being called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runners."

Those examples are not relevant to the discussion, nor are they relevant to the interpretation you cite.

These examples are talking about forced baserunners that have not fulfilled their obligation to touch the next base, and they're the ones put out for abandonment....the forced runner put out in any fashion is a force out. (same with batter-runner who hasn't yet reached first base)

In my scenario, the batter-runner has fulfilled his obligation by reaching first base (he couldn't "abandon" otherwise), and he's the one I'm proposing get himself out...his out is a time play as he is no longer "forced" (ie. the batter/runner makes the third out AFTER reaching first base) whether he is tagged or he abandons - though, based on the interpretation you cite from 2021 and 2017, that would then bring up the conversation of whether the team could take the advantageous fourth out on R1 who is still forced. (the whole "does it have to be an appeal" conversation)

The 2017 MLBUM interpretation is interesting...guess they decided to close that loophole...obviously not the first person to think of it.   Closes the potential farce that would occur if, with bases loaded and nobody out, groundball hit to F6, as F6 throws home R1 runs to the dugout, removing the force play at home...hoping F2 simply catches ball and immediately throws to first without tagging R3...still a DP, but run scores.

[LC Ump]

No, it is no longer a force play. R1 was forced to advance to 2b but safely acquired the base. If he is off 2b in either direction after that - to advance to 3b or mistakenly think he needs to return to 1b - he must be tagged to be put out 

Yes, the run counts. The hitter safely reached 1b safe and R3 crossed HP before the 3rd out was recorded on R1. (It would not have counted if the 3rd out was made by way of a force play on R1 at 2b or by retiring the hitter before he reached 1b.)

[ump7tony]

28 minutes ago, Guest Osan Baseball said:

Men on 1st and 3rd.  2 outs.

Batter hits a 1 hop ground ball up the middle near 2nd base.  Shortstop comes over, fields the ball.  Man on 3rd runs home and scores.  Man on 1st base runs to 2nd base.  Shortstop gets the ball and throws to first base. First baseman drops the throw, so hitter is safe at first.  But, while this is all going on, the man running to 2nd gets to 2nd base and touches the base, but thinks that the shortstop caught a pop fly, so then starts running back to 1st base.  He doesn't make it all the way back to first because people are yelling at him to go back to 2nd..  The 1st baseman throws the ball to 2nd base before that runner gets back to 2nd base.  Play was called a force out at 2nd base, and run was taken off the board.

 

Question #1 - is it still a force out at 2nd base if the runner already touched 2nd  base before heading back towards 1st?

Question #2 - does the run count?  The runner crossed home plate at least 5-10 seconds before the final out was recorded.   

Does the fact that the runner was already on 2nd base mean the run then counts because that part of the play was completed before the process of the out was recorded?

 

I would rule...the runner touched second base removing a potential force. After leaving the base, he was liable to be put out by tagging him. Then it becomes a timing play...if the runner going home touched home before the runner leaving second is tagged...run scores since the third out would not be a force out.  

I am not aware of any rule or case study that allows for a runner to "untouch" a base so overruning or retreating does not erase a previous touch. So once he touched second, the force is removed.