Catch foul ball with hat, and P/DH double substitution

[Guest Assistant coach Geoff]

Our team was playing in a tournament, and our coach was away so I was reluctantly put in charge. Anyways, a couple of situations came up, that I'd like your input on.  The game was played under OBR rules, if that matters.

Play 1: Two strikes on batter, and he hits a foul fly ball towards 1B dugout. Our catcher has no idea where it is, he's looking behind him.  Pitcher starts running towards it, with his hat in his hands, overruns it, and then catches it behind himself with his hat.  Umpire said it was an "illegal catch" or something like that, and it was just a foul ball.  But the offensive team was arguing for a triple as they said that was the penalty for intentionally touching a batted ball with your hat.  The umpire said it doesn't apply to foul balls. This was the rare call where both teams were mad at the umpire - our guys wanted an out (I was ok with not getting it, I know you can't throw your glove or hat at a ball, and figured this was based on the same rule, and told our complainers to shut it), and the other team wanted a triple, and instead it was just essentially a do-over. 

Situation 2: We had a DH in our lineup. In the middle of the game, I want to change pitchers, but keep him in the field. We had been playing with only 2 regular outfielders, the guy playing LF was our regular 1B, and at 1B we had a backup. Anyways I want to put our starting pitcher in LF, move our LF to 1B, and bring in the new pitcher. I know that eliminates the use of DH rest of the game. 

Essentially we were removing two batters from the lineup - the DH and the 1B, and replacing them with the old pitcher (now in LF), and the new pitcher.  I wanted our new pitcher to bat in the spot the DH had been batting in, and the old pitcher to bat in the spot of the original 1B. The umpire said we couldn't do that, because the pitcher was "locked" into the DH position in the starting lineup. So we had no choice but to bat the old pitcher in the DH spot and the new pitcher in the 1B spot according to him.  Is this right? Can't I bat the new players wherever I want when I make a double substitution?  I actually googled this after the game and found rule 5.11 that deals with DHs, but it was confusing to follow.  Can anyone shed some light on this rule? I dont care if the umpire was right or wrong, but want to know for next time.

Thank you,

Geoff

 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Guest Assistant coach Geoff said:

Our team was playing in a tournament, and our coach was away so I was reluctantly put in charge. Anyways, a couple of situations came up, that I'd like your input on.  The game was played under OBR rules, if that matters.

Play 1: Two strikes on batter, and he hits a foul fly ball towards 1B dugout. Our catcher has no idea where it is, he's looking behind him.  Pitcher starts running towards it, with his hat in his hands, overruns it, and then catches it behind himself with his hat.  Umpire said it was an "illegal catch" or something like that, and it was just a foul ball.  But the offensive team was arguing for a triple as they said that was the penalty for intentionally touching a batted ball with your hat.  The umpire said it doesn't apply to foul balls. This was the rare call where both teams were mad at the umpire - our guys wanted an out (I was ok with not getting it, I know you can't throw your glove or hat at a ball, and figured this was based on the same rule, and told our complainers to shut it), and the other team wanted a triple, and instead it was just essentially a do-over. 

Situation 2: We had a DH in our lineup. In the middle of the game, I want to change pitchers, but keep him in the field. We had been playing with only 2 regular outfielders, the guy playing LF was our regular 1B, and at 1B we had a backup. Anyways I want to put our starting pitcher in LF, move our LF to 1B, and bring in the new pitcher. I know that eliminates the use of DH rest of the game. 

Essentially we were removing two batters from the lineup - the DH and the 1B, and replacing them with the old pitcher (now in LF), and the new pitcher.  I wanted our new pitcher to bat in the spot the DH had been batting in, and the old pitcher to bat in the spot of the original 1B. The umpire said we couldn't do that, because the pitcher was "locked" into the DH position in the starting lineup. So we had no choice but to bat the old pitcher in the DH spot and the new pitcher in the 1B spot according to him.  Is this right? Can't I bat the new players wherever I want when I make a double substitution?  I actually googled this after the game and found rule 5.11 that deals with DHs, but it was confusing to follow.  Can anyone shed some light on this rule? I dont care if the umpire was right or wrong, but want to know for next time.

Thank you,

Geoff

 

Sit 1. This is a foul ball unless the umpire judged the ball had a chance to become fair. If so judged it would be a three base award but in your OP it doesn't appear that the ball could have a chance to go fair. The rule covers fair balls and you have to go to an MLBUM interp for judging whether a ball could go fair.

Sit 2. This is a multiple substitution (not a double switch) and the manager can choose where to bat each player. The lineup is not being changed. The subs could be done one at a time and you end up with the new pitcher in the DH lineup slot. Sub the player who is going to pitch as the DH. Now tell the ump the DH is going to pitch and my old pitcher is going on defense in the lineup spot of the old F3. So if it can be done one at a time OBR also allows it to happen in one multiple sub.

[The Man in Blue]

Oh ... that is funky.  Since there ought to be a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the designated hitter, I never brushed up on the OBR rule (grew up an NL kid).  That didn't seem right, so I did read it ... wow.  That is funky.  It does work in OBR.

5.11(a)(5)

The Designated Hitter may be used on defense, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.

That wouldn't work in NFHS, which is what I assume the umpire from the OP was thinking.

3-1-4 (edited to the relevant part)

A designated hitter and the player for whom he is batting are locked into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation.

 

[DevildogUmp]

I think 5.11(a)(5) only pertains if the DH is coming into the game on defense while the pitcher remains in the game. Also, only 1 person is coming into the game so the manager doesn't get an option of moving people around in the lineup. Therefore, even under OBR I believe the umpire was correct. The sub entered for the 1st baseman so he bats in the 1st baseman's spot in the lineup, the starting pitcher moved to a defensive postition, eliminating the DH and now must bat in that spot in the lineup.

 

Matt

[Jimurray]

14 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

I think 5.11(a)(5) only pertains if the DH is coming into the game on defense while the pitcher remains in the game. Also, only 1 person is coming into the game so the manager doesn't get an option of moving people around in the lineup. Therefore, even under OBR I believe the umpire was correct. The sub entered for the 1st baseman so he bats in the 1st baseman's spot in the lineup, the starting pitcher moved to a defensive postition, eliminating the DH and now must bat in that spot in the lineup.

 

Matt

There used to be something in the rules that said an offensive sub for the DH could not happen on defense. I can't find that any more. So if my sub in post 2 might not be legal, why couldn't you put the DH in on defense, pitcher now batting in replaced player's position (F3, 1st baseman) and then sub for the DH and then make that player the pitcher. If it can be done roundabout it can be done straight away. I think multiple subs also applies to not only one person coming into the game but more than one being changed in the lineup. 

[MadMax]

21 hours ago, Guest Assistant coach Geoff said:

Umpire said it was an "illegal catch" or something like that, and it was just a foul ball.  But the offensive team was arguing for a triple as they said that was the penalty for intentionally touching a batted ball with your hat.  The umpire said it doesn't apply to foul balls.

On this one, the umpire got it right. Because the batted ball was a Foul Ball, it cannot be a Triple (3-base award). The only way a Batter is ever awarded a base (1B) on a batted foul ball is Catchers Interference (CI). Additionally, detached equipment cannot be used to make / secure a catch. If the ball had been Fair, or as @Jimurray points out had a chance of becoming fair (yet to be determined), then this is where the base awards (penalty to the defense) come in. With a pop fly by the dugout? Not quite. “Time! Not a catch! Cannot catch a fly ball in your hat. The ball was Foul. Batter? Still at-bat.” (Or something along those lines).

21 hours ago, Guest Assistant coach Geoff said:

The umpire said we couldn't do that, because the pitcher was "locked" into the DH position in the starting lineup.

On this one, the umpire was … let’s say, incorrect, as it is likely he was applying or interpreting the NFHS DH rule. Or, perhaps the Tournament Series had a lineup modification for amateur baseball (?). 

[beerguy55]

On 8/27/2022 at 12:46 PM, Jimurray said:

Sit 1. This is a foul ball unless the umpire judged the ball had a chance to become fair. If so judged it would be a three base award but in your OP it doesn't appear that the ball could have a chance to go fair. The rule covers fair balls and you have to go to an MLBUM interp for judging whether a ball could go fair.

If the player caught the ball with his hat on thrown/pitched ball then all runners advance one base, right?

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

If the player caught the ball with his hat on thrown/pitched ball then all runners advance one base, right?

In OBR using detached equipment to contact a pitched ball is 1 base for all runners. Contacting a thrown ball is 2 bases for runners and batter-runner.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

In OBR using detached equipment to contact a pitched ball is 1 base for all runners. Contacting a thrown ball is 2 bases for runners and batter-runner.

Two bases on a pitch in FED (unless they've changed it in the past several years)