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Verbal Obstruction

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Fed Rules, 18U, three man crew, R3, 0 outs, I'm in A.  Pop-up in foul territory by the 3B dugout.  F1, F2 and F5 converge.  At the last second someone in the dugout yells "I got it".  Of course the ball drops in between them all.  U3 called the batter out. Are we calling the batter out AND getting a bench warning.  Just wondering.

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I think the out is "warning enough" (at least officially-- you might still admonish the dugout without pulling our your lineup card and recording the official warning)

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I’m calling the batter out and issuing a written warning for the team.  While I get noumpere’s point, I’m not taking it for granted that anything is “warning enough” other than the warning.  

Oddly, if the bench yells to get the pitcher to balk, it is an automatic ejection.  Seems like a harsher penalty for a lesser violation, IMO.

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50 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I’m calling the batter out and issuing a written warning for the team.  While I get noumpere’s point, I’m not taking it for granted that anything is “warning enough” other than the warning.  

Oddly, if the bench yells to get the pitcher to balk, it is an automatic ejection.  Seems like a harsher penalty for a lesser violation, IMO.

Outs are almost always a harsher penalty than an ejection (depending on who is ejected).  If we were able to get outs or score runs for conduct violations (similar to a 15 yard penalty in football), rather than only being able to eject, I guarantee we would have less arguing in baseball.

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From the 2016 BRD (section 325, p. 214):  FED:  Members of the offense may not do or say anything that might confuse the defense. (2-21-1)

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 2.21.1 Situation A:  With R2, B2 hits a grounder to F6. Just as F6 starts to throw to first base, R2 on his way to third base, yells at F6, which startles F6, causing him to throw the ball over F3’s head into dead-ball territory. RULING:  R2 is called out immediately for verbal interference, and if in the judgment of the umpire the interference prevented a possible double play, B2 also would be called out.

Please note that besides the out for interference there is no other penalty listed in the rule book other than the ball is dead (see also rule 5-1-1e). Also note that it is interference we are talking about here not obstruction.

FED Official Interpretation: Rumble:  B1 grounds to short. R2 shouts at the shortstop as he passes in front of him. It is offensive, verbal interference, and R2 is out.

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1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Outs are almost always a harsher penalty than an ejection (depending on who is ejected).  If we were able to get outs or score runs for conduct violations (similar to a 15 yard penalty in football), rather than only being able to eject, I guarantee we would have less arguing in baseball.

 

Depends on your perspective.  I would say the EJ is harsher than the out.  :shrug:

Maybe that will be tried in the Atlantic League next year ... arguing with TrackMan calls will result in awarding the other team a run for every 15 seconds the coach/player carries on.  :Facepalm:

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2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Depends on your perspective.  I would say the EJ is harsher than the out.

For the player yes...for the team, the out is usually harsher...there are exceptions but most teams in most scenarios would rather sacrifice a player than an out.

Now, if this was like soccer where an ejection also leaves you down a player for the remainder of the game...or like hockey, put a player in the penalty box for a defensive half of the inning.

Most ejections are a contrivance of the player or coach anyway. Very few players or coaches are surprised when the ejection occurs.

Coach getting ejection has no other detrimental impact.  But often players get ejected:

  • when they were never in the game
  • when they have just left the game
  • at a point in the game where there is minimal impact (eg. the DH after his third at bat, the starting pitcher who has thrown 105 pitches)

Even when that's not the case I think you'd have a hard time pointing out more than a few MLB player ejections in the past two seasons that had any meaningful impact to the outcome of the game.

Imagine if the defense arguing resulted in a two base award, sometimes a run, for the offense...or the offense arguing resulted in two bases backwards, or an out...or a strike.

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

For the player yes...for the team, the out is usually harsher...there are exceptions but most teams in most scenarios would rather sacrifice a player than an out.

Now, if this was like soccer where an ejection also leaves you down a player for the remainder of the game...or like hockey, put a player in the penalty box for a defensive half of the inning.

Most ejections are a contrivance of the player or coach anyway. Very few players or coaches are surprised when the ejection occurs.

Coach getting ejection has no other detrimental impact.  But often players get ejected:

  • when they were never in the game
  • when they have just left the game
  • at a point in the game where there is minimal impact (eg. the DH after his third at bat, the starting pitcher who has thrown 105 pitches)

Even when that's not the case I think you'd have a hard time pointing out more than a few MLB player ejections in the past two seasons that had any meaningful impact to the outcome of the game.

Imagine if the defense arguing resulted in a two base award, sometimes a run, for the offense...or the offense arguing resulted in two bases backwards, or an out...or a strike.

Exactly the detail I wasn't willing to spend time to write.  Well stated.

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Why are we arguing over which is the harsher penalty? The OP tells us that there was a verbal interference. The penalty is an out just as in other forms of interference in the rule book. The example given by Mr. The Man in Blue is a misconduct (enticing the pitcher to balk) for which there is no rule to award an out. Not only is it a misconduct but it is a form of cheating which in my estimation is a worse violation and deserves a worse penalty—in this case—an ejection. I think the rules makers thought ejection was a more severe penalty than an out.

Another example would be a batter carelessly throwing his bat. Nothing in the rules allows the umpire to call an out for that action. All we can do by interpretation is warn and then eject. Unless you want to rewrite the whole rule book you must accept the fact that there is no more serious a penalty than ejection.

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From the 2016 BRD (section 325, p. 214):  FED:  Members of the offense may not do or say anything that might confuse the defense. (2-21-1)

     No outs R2 and R1...ground ball to F6, he throws to F5 who "tags out" a sliding R2,  and throws to F3 to get the BR.  Meanwhile R2 has gotten up and is running home, F3 comes off the base,  makes a throw to home to get R2(who is already out). BR declared safe at 1st by BU.

    Is this just smart baserunning by the offense or an attempt to confuse the defense?

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Mr. Phu Bai, what you are asking about is interference by a retired runner which has been discussed here in this forum many times before. But it gives me another chance to use my mad BRD skills to answer. From the 2016 BRD (section 296, p. 196):

FED:  A batter-runner or runner is not guilty of interference if he continues to advance, even when he knows he is out, even if that advance allows other runners to make additional bases.

Also see 2019 Case Book Play 8.3.3 Situation I. 

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