Dropped ball after collision

[Guest Rookie Mom]

Had an interesting game this weekend where the ump ruled a runner out then safe. The game involved 8U teams. 

Our second baseman fielded the ball and make a physical tag on the base runner who was advancing from first. The runner collided with fielder after the tag was made and knocked him down. When the fielder hit the ground, the ball case out of the glove. The fielder was hit hard & injured. The runner made no attempt to avoid tag or fielder. Would this be an out or would runner be safe? 

[Lou B]

What age group, what rule set/code? 

For example, in Little League, he would be out for not attempting to avoid a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag. In addition, based on your description, the runner "could" also be warned/ejected for malicious contact/unsportsmanlike conduct if warranted.

[Guest Rookie Mom]

It was in a under 8 yrs tournament game. Only thing in their published rules pertaining to this was “Any attempt to knock down or roll block a defensive player will result in the base runner being called out and ejected from the game.”

It wasn’t a true malicious act according to tournament personnel who watched it. But in no way did the runner try to avoid the tag. He kept his original running path & didn’t “dodge”/move his body. 

The fielder was approaching baseline as he was tagging body & not blocking base. It occurred 3 to 4 ft away from 2nd base. 

[mwest5575]

Hmm probably had to be there. But it sounds like there was a clear path to the base for the runner and the fielder collided with the runner? If that's the case then I wouldn't have MC and the runner would be safe assuming he made it to the bag.

[Mad Mike]

47 minutes ago, Guest Rookie Mom said:

It was in a under 8 yrs tournament game. Only thing in their published rules pertaining to this was “Any attempt to knock down or roll block a defensive player will result in the base runner being called out and ejected from the game.”

It wasn’t a true malicious act according to tournament personnel who watched it. But in no way did the runner try to avoid the tag. He kept his original running path & didn’t “dodge”/move his body. 

The fielder was approaching baseline as he was tagging body & not blocking base. It occurred 3 to 4 ft away from 2nd base.  

If this occurred only 3-4 feet from the base, shouldn't the runner have slid?  While there is no requirement to slide, if there is contact, it has to be legal contact.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Mad Mike said:

 it has to be legal contact.

Rule set dependent

 

[Guest Rookie Mom]

3 hours ago, mwest5575 said:

Hmm probably had to be there. But it sounds like there was a clear path to the base for the runner and the fielder collided with the runner? If that's the case then I wouldn't have MC and the runner would be safe assuming he made it to the bag.

When it happened it was clear what took place. Describing where & what isn’t so. 

The fielder was on the backside of the baseline - closer to grass. He fielded the ball, approached runner, tagged him & it was the runner who collided with the fielder. Yes the runner made it to second base after tag and the collision. The ball came out of the fielders glove when he was flattened out & hit the ground. The ball did not come out due to the fielder touching the runner. 

[Guest Rookie Mom]

2 hours ago, Mad Mike said:

If this occurred only 3-4 feet from the base, shouldn't the runner have slid?  While there is no requirement to slide, if there is contact, it has to be legal contact.

There is no requirement to slide. 

What is a legal contact? Maybe that’s what is in question? In no way was the fielder obstructing the runner or the base. 

[Replacematt]

3 minutes ago, Guest Rookie Mom said:

When it happened it was clear what took place. Describing where & what isn’t so. 

The fielder was on the backside of the baseline - closer to grass. He fielded the ball, approached runner, tagged him & it was the runner who collided with the fielder. Yes the runner made it to second base after tag and the collision. The ball came out of the fielders glove when he was flattened out & hit the ground. The ball did not come out due to the fielder touching the runner. 

Still hard to tell if this is illegal or not. 

[Lou B]

4 hours ago, Guest Rookie Mom said:

"Any attempt to knock down or roll block a defensive player will result in the base runner being called out and ejected from the game.”

Why have a rule and then not enforce it? You did say the runner knocked down the fielder didn't you?

[Replacematt]

6 minutes ago, Lou B said:

Why have a rule and then not enforce it? You did say the runner knocked down the fielder didn't you?

Here's the problem--it may not have been an attempt to. With how she described it, it's hard to tell what exactly happened. Just because someone got knocked down doesn't mean there was an attempt to do so or the possibility to avoid it.

[Lou B]

The post said the runner made no attempt to avoid the fielder and knocked the fielder over resulting in an injury to the fielder.  To me, there was more than an attempt to knock down a fielder, the runner did knock down the fielder.

I'm not a fan of how the rule is written but it seems to me that by that rule the runner should have been out and ejected.  YMMV

[Replacematt]

2 minutes ago, Lou B said:

The post said the runner made no attempt to avoid the fielder and knocked the fielder over resulting in an injury to the fielder.  To me, there was more than an attempt to knock down a fielder, the runner did knock down the fielder.

I'm not a fan of how the rule is written but it seems to me that by that rule the runner should have been out and ejected.  YMMV

Please reread my post. 

[MT73]

Just curious as to how would this be ruled in Federation and OBR?

[maven]

3 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Just curious as to how would this be ruled in Federation and OBR?

Still hard to know. It could be MC (FED), INT (either), or nothing (likely for OBR). It might or might not have been a tag. These are all judgment calls, and without video there's no good way to assess them.

As the fielder had the ball, the only thing we know for sure is that it's not OBS.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Lou B said:

The post said the runner made no attempt to avoid the fielder and knocked the fielder over resulting in an injury to the fielder.  To me, there was more than an attempt to knock down a fielder, the runner did knock down the fielder.

 

Or maybe the fielder jumped into the path of the runner. It's 8U.  I'd bet a considerable amount on it.

Mom said: "The fielder was on the backside of the baseline - closer to grass. He fielded the ball, approached runner, tagged him . . "

[MadMax]

10 minutes ago, Guest Rookie Mom said:

When it happened it was clear what took place. Describing where & what isn’t so. 

The fielder was on the backside of the baseline - closer to grass. He fielded the ball, approached runner, tagged him & it was the runner who collided with the fielder. Yes the runner made it to second base after tag and the collision. The ball came out of the fielders glove when he was flattened out & hit the ground. The ball did not come out due to the fielder touching the runner. 

I'm of the opinion that, at this age level, once the runner has been tagged, he is out and is now a retired runner. His collision with the fielder – who had the ball securely when he made the tag (not that he was receiving the throw and/or bobbling it) – cannot cause or create the dispossession of the ball. I wouldn't go so far as to apply Malicious Contact (these are 8 year olds, for crying out loud), but just simply explain to a coach (if he even bothers to ask) that the Runner was tagged out, and the ball came free after the tag out.

[dpheat]

On 5/27/2019 at 8:42 AM, MadMax said:

I'm of the opinion that, at this age level, once the runner has been tagged, he is out and is now a retired runner. His collision with the fielder – who had the ball securely when he made the tag (not that he was receiving the throw and/or bobbling it) – cannot cause or create the dispossession of the ball. I wouldn't go so far as to apply Malicious Contact (these are 8 year olds, for crying out loud), but just simply explain to a coach (if he even bothers to ask) that the Runner was tagged out, and the ball came free after the tag out.

Totally agree and would also explain to the coach to talk with the runner to avoid this in the future

[maven]

Please don't wake the zombies.