Is this a visit? (by rule)

[stl_ump]

OBR

Coach is granted time and calls his pitcher over to the foul line and talks to him.  Coach doesn't cross the line.  He contends this shouldn't be counted as a visit.

What do you think?  (by rule)  Or is this just too 3rd world to even have a rule?

Thanks

 

[noumpere]

It's a visit.  From MLBUM:

 

If a manager or coach's conference with the pitcher takes place on the grass (i.e., off the dirt of
the mound), this constitutes a trip. If a manager or coach confers with the pitcher on the grass (or
the meeting "moves" from the dirt to the grass), the trip ends when the manager or coach
"breaks" from the meeting. He must then keep going and not return to the pitcher.

[MadMax]

There are known loopholes in the Rules.

This...

1 hour ago, stl_ump said:

Coach is granted time and calls his pitcher over to the foul line and talks to him.  Coach doesn't cross the line.  He contends this shouldn't be counted as a visit.

... isn’t one of them.

[stl_ump]

So I've got a little more info that this question was based on.

This is after a caught fly ball with a runner advancing.  Coach comes out of the dug out and walks to the foul line and tells the pitcher to step off and throw to make an appeal.  Umpire considered this a visit.

I'm think this does not constitute a visit.

[Tksjewelry]

Yeah, I'm probably charging a visit.

[jjb]

16 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

So I've got a little more info that this question was based on.

This is after a caught fly ball with a runner advancing.  Coach comes out of the dug out and walks to the foul line and tells the pitcher to step off and throw to make an appeal.  Umpire considered this a visit.

I'm think this does not constitute a visit.

Then what do you think it constitutes? The coach asks for time, walks out onto the field, and confers with the pitcher. Sounds like a trip to me.

[stl_ump]

I'm not sure if he called time but either way he didn't "confer" pitcher, just told him to appeal and that was the extent of the conversation.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, stl_ump said:

OBR

Coach is granted time and calls his pitcher over to the foul line and talks to him.  Coach doesn't cross the line.  He contends this shouldn't be counted as a visit.

What do you think?  (by rule)  Or is this just too 3rd world to even have a rule?

Thanks

 

 

43 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

So I've got a little more info that this question was based on.

This is after a caught fly ball with a runner advancing.  Coach comes out of the dug out and walks to the foul line and tells the pitcher to step off and throw to make an appeal.  Umpire considered this a visit.

I'm think this does not constitute a visit.

There's quite a difference between those two posts.  In the first, time was granted, the pitcher came over.  In the second, neither happened) or is described as happening).

You might get different rulings based on that.

 

[stl_ump]

That's what i figured.  Once I got the ENTIRE story, I figured it would.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, stl_ump said:

This is after a caught fly ball with a runner advancing.  Coach comes out of the dug out and walks to the foul line and tells the pitcher to step off and throw to make an appeal.  Umpire considered this a visit.

... and this is why we shouldn’t grant time frivolously!

This is one of those few points where NFHS Rules are superior, and “have it right”, over OBR as they apply to youth–amateur baseball. A simple, clear verbal appeal, whether the ball is Dead or Live, is far less maddening or cumbersome than having to go through the machinations of making the ball Live, stepping off, throwing over, etc.

Right now, I’m rubbing my temples.

Know what might help in this? A little less animosity and standoffishness between coaches and umpires. Instead of walking out of the dugout – at which our (umpire) alarms get triggered, because we view any coach interaction as a confrontation – and having to ask for time so as to explain or direct the pitcher how to get on and off the rubber and throw over to appeal, we should have a better relationship. Something more like this, as an example:

• ”Safe!”
• From the dugout opening, “Hey Max, we think he left early.”
• ”Okay, Roger. Ball is still Live.”
• ”Ryan! Throw it to third! Greg, touch the base!”
• Greg receives the throw, touches third, and we judge accordingly.

Simple!

[jjb]

Wait a minute: the defensive coach leaves the dugout, and walks to the foul line, and you're leaving the ball in play? I'm either (1) calling Time, or (2) telling the coach to get his a@@ off the da@@ field. 

[noumpere]

24 minutes ago, jjb said:

Wait a minute: the defensive coach leaves the dugout, and walks to the foul line, and you're leaving the ball in play? I'm either (1) calling Time, or (2) telling the coach to get his a@@ off the da@@ field. 

Who said that?

 

And, in FED, the ball must be dead to make a verbal appeal.

[Senor Azul]

Even though the OP asked about OBR, now that the discussion has turned to FED philosophy on conferences I can introduce the following interpretation for FED from Mr. maven’s favorite rules interpreter, Brad Rumble (2016 BRD, p. 116):

An umpire will not charge a conference when the coach approaches the foul line to instruct his players or yells at his players to switch positions. (3/98 #13 and 14)

[BT_Blue]

On 6/6/2018 at 1:02 PM, jjb said:

Wait a minute: the defensive coach leaves the dugout, and walks to the foul line, and you're leaving the ball in play? I'm either (1) calling Time, or (2) telling the coach to get his a@@ off the da@@ field. 

I'm reading this as it is happening during relaxed action. So I have no issue if he walks out that far.

[BT_Blue]

On 6/6/2018 at 12:55 PM, MadMax said:

... and this is why we shouldn’t grant time frivolously!

This is one of those few points where NFHS Rules are superior, and “have it right”, over OBR as they apply to youth–amateur baseball. A simple, clear verbal appeal, whether the ball is Dead or Live, is far less maddening or cumbersome than having to go through the machinations of making the ball Live, stepping off, throwing over, etc.

Right now, I’m rubbing my temples.

Know what might help in this? A little less animosity and standoffishness between coaches and umpires. Instead of walking out of the dugout – at which our (umpire) alarms get triggered, because we view any coach interaction as a confrontation – and having to ask for time so as to explain or direct the pitcher how to get on and off the rubber and throw over to appeal, we should have a better relationship. Something more like this, as an example:

• ”Safe!”
• From the dugout opening, “Hey Max, we think he left early.”
• ”Okay, Roger. Ball is still Live.”
• ”Ryan! Throw it to third! Greg, touch the base!”
• Greg receives the throw, touches third, and we judge accordingly.

Simple!

I had this exact thing happen in a Babe Ruth game last weekend. BR (to me) looks like he misses 1B as he rounds to run out a triple. (My partner who is in the middle doesn't see him just miss the bag but I have a great look at it.)

Play ends and DHC starts yelling about BR missing the bag. I am standing there just waiting for SOMEONE to DO SOMETHING! The ball is still live and they throw the ball back to F1 who is standing on the dirt of the mound looking like he would rather be anywhere but where he was.

Eventually F2 turns to me and requests time. JUST GREAT!

I grant it and now we have to do the whole song and dance of everyone resetting and putting the ball in play... yada yada.

I later tell F2 and then the DHC that if they had thrown the ball over to first, walked it there, HELL if they had crawled over there on their hands and knees it would have been a legal appeal! But since time was granted. Now we have to go through The Process. 

[Jimurray]

On 6/6/2018 at 2:55 PM, MadMax said:

... and this is why we shouldn’t grant time frivolously!

This is one of those few points where NFHS Rules are superior, and “have it right”, over OBR as they apply to youth–amateur baseball. A simple, clear verbal appeal, whether the ball is Dead or Live, is far less maddening or cumbersome than having to go through the machinations of making the ball Live, stepping off, throwing over, etc.

Right now, I’m rubbing my temples.

Know what might help in this? A little less animosity and standoffishness between coaches and umpires. Instead of walking out of the dugout – at which our (umpire) alarms get triggered, because we view any coach interaction as a confrontation – and having to ask for time so as to explain or direct the pitcher how to get on and off the rubber and throw over to appeal, we should have a better relationship. Something more like this, as an example:

• ”Safe!”
• From the dugout opening, “Hey Max, we think he left early.”
• ”Okay, Roger. Ball is still Live.”
• ”Ryan! Throw it to third! Greg, touch the base!”
• Greg receives the throw, touches third, and we judge accordingly.

Simple!

While the bolded is not required it is a really, really, really good idea. Just ask Verlander.

[ljvavs]

Talk about "Is this a visit?"

OBR Rec Pony Baseball game. Had a coach call "Time". I take off my mask and begin to brush the plate, thinking he was going out to talk to his pitcher. I look up, and he had called over his catcher, whispering some defensive strategy to get the runner out at 3rd. He took about 45 seconds and returned to the dugout. Does this count as a visit?

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, ljvavs said:

Talk about "Is this a visit?"

OBR Rec Pony Baseball game. Had a coach call "Time". I take off my mask and begin to brush the plate, thinking he was going out to talk to his pitcher. I look up, and he had called over his catcher, whispering some defensive strategy to get the runner out at 3rd. He took about 45 seconds and returned to the dugout. Does this count as a visit?

Yes.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. noumpere, why isn’t this just a defensive time out? It is my understanding of the rule that when a manager confers with a defensive player, a trip is charged only when (before a pitch or intervening play), the player goes to the mound or the pitcher comes to the player. Here’s the applicable rule—unless you have another OBR or PONY rule cite.

2018 OBR Rule 5.10(l) Comment: If the manager or coach goes to the catcher or infielder and that player then goes to the mound or the pitcher comes to him at his position before there is an intervening play (a pitch or other play) that will be the same as the manager or coach going to the mound.

Any attempt to evade or circumvent this rule by the manager or coach going to the catcher or an infielder and then that player going to the mound to confer with the pitcher shall constitute a trip to the mound...

[Rich Ives]

On 6/10/2018 at 12:40 PM, Jimurray said:

While the bolded is not required it is a really, really, really good idea. Just ask Verlander.

Pettitte too.

Umpires need to learn the rules I guess.