I know, foul ball but...

[noumpere]

You know that the rule book doesn't always say exactly what it means, or mean exactly what it says. 

J/R introduces some additional language, calling the ball sharp-and-direct to the catcher a "nicked pitch."  Such a "nicked pitch" can only be a foul ball or a foul tip.

 

(If it helps, you could add some phrase like "solidly struck" to the line drive definition to further differentiate it.)

 

(5) it is a foul tip.

A foul tip occurs when pitch nicks the bat and goes sharply and directly to the
catcher's glove or hand and is caught by the catcher unassisted. A nicked pitch
that initially strikes something other than the catcher's glove or hand (e.g., the
ground, batter, umpire, mask, protector) cannot be a foul tip; it is simply a nick
and foul. The ball remains in play after a foul tip; thus, it is equivalent to a pitch
that is swung at, missed, and caught. A foul tip can be an illegally batted ball (see
p. 16).

[stl_ump]

Just now, stkjock said:

Forest for the trees man.  I'm not versed enough in the rule book to continue this debate, so I will bow out at this point, good luck in your quest for a acceptable answer. 

No problem.  

As I've stated, I know it's a foul ball.  But I 'm one of those types of people that "needs" the reason for something in black and white.  And maybe in this case this is where the book isn't crystal clear.  At least for me anyway. 

Thanks 

 

[stkjock]

1 minute ago, stl_ump said:

No problem.  

As I've stated, I know it's a foul ball.  But I 'm one of those types of people that "needs" the reason for something in black and white.  And maybe in this case this is where the book isn't crystal clear.  At least for me anyway. 

Thanks 

 

if the book were always clear, you'd not need the MLBUM, nor any of the Interp manuals, or this site...  

[stl_ump]

Just now, stkjock said:

if the book were always clear, you'd not need the MLBUM, nor any of the Interp manuals, or this site...  

So true!

It looks like that guy who's never seen or heard of baseball is just going to have to believe us.

 

[Rich Ives]

6 hours ago, stl_ump said:

But it doesn't.

It talks about a "rebound" in the case of a foul tip.  It talks about what a line drive is - sharp and direct - which we have here. It talks about a fly ball which we don't have here. 

If you had never seen baseball or knew nothing of it and I said "the batter swings and the ball is hit sharp and direct in foul territory and it bounces off a player but is then caught it is an out. .. Except if it's the catcher"  How could you explain this exception, by the book, why it's a foul ball?  Remember, your answer has to come from the book.  Or the MLBUM.

It's becomes just a rebound INSTEAD OF a foul tip. It's only a foul tip if it hits the hand or glove first. A ball that doesn't hit one of them first but hits the catcher is thus a rebound and it CANNOT BE CAUGHT in the sense of it being an out. It says so right in the rule.

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat
to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless
caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It
is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the
catcher’s glove or hand.

 

No catch = no out. You don't have to like it. But that's the way it is.

[beerguy55]

Well, if you read the foul tip rule in black and white...

If, upon releasing the pitch the catcher got up and ran down the first base line 30 feet and turned around, and then the batter hit a line drive right into the catcher's mitt - it would be a foul tip.

We know that's not the intent.

 

As to the "Why"...it is not so applicable in the day of the 100 mph fast ball, but with a lot of slower, junky pitches, it would be possible for a batter to nick the ball and the catcher to accidentally on purpose "deflect" the ball up and then catch it - in fact, why wouldn't you try to every time.

With less than two strikes and nobody on base, there would be no incentive for the catcher to put their glove as a target - keep hands to the side and let pitches hit your chest and smother - if the batter's nick's the pitch you'd have an out.   That's my guess as to why.

I think the full intent is to differentiate between a ball hit backwards vs forwards

 

[ElkOil]

26 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

So true!

It looks like that guy who's never seen or heard of baseball is just going to have to believe us.

 

That's the truth. There are situations like this one that, while they are exceedingly similar to other scenarios, are handled as exceptions in the rules and have rules unto themselves. Trying to understand the rationale behind those is confusing at best.

[Tborze]

1 hour ago, stl_ump said:

So true!

It looks like that guy who's never seen or heard of baseball is just going to have to believe us.

 

You mean coaches?

not @Rich Ives

[Mister B]

Here's the biggest difference. The catcher is the only defensive player allowed to set up in foul territory. How that applies to the rule, I don't know, but it is a huge difference. 

[MooseLoop]

In law, a maxim of jurisprudence holds that a specific exception takes precedence over a general rule.  The same principle applies here.  The specific exception stated in the definition of a foul tip takes precedence over the rule for catching a typical foul line drive.

[Stk004]

On 6/5/2017 at 7:46 AM, Rich Ives said:

It's becomes just a rebound INSTEAD OF a foul tip. It's only a foul tip if it hits the hand or glove first. A ball that doesn't hit one of them first but hits the catcher is thus a rebound and it CANNOT BE CAUGHT in the sense of it being an out. It says so right in the rule.

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat
to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless
caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It
is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the
catcher’s glove or hand.

 

No catch = no out. You don't have to like it. But that's the way it is.

Ives makes the winning point. If a batted ball goes sharp and direct to the CATCHER'S hands, it's a foul tip. BUT, the foul tip rule says that IT IS NOT A CATCH  if it is a rebound. No catch = no out or foul tip. A batted ball that deflects off the catcher, excluding his hands, CANNOT BE CAUGHT. 

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Stk004 said:

Ives makes the winning point. If a batted ball goes sharp and direct to the CATCHER'S hands, it's a foul tip. BUT, the foul tip rule says that IT IS NOT A CATCH  if it is a rebound. No catch = no out or foul tip. A batted ball that deflects off the catcher, excluding his hands, CANNOT BE CAUGHT. 

I think ultimately trying to justify the issue with the literal wording of the rule book is fruitless.  The foul tip definition, and all its contents, defines only a foul tip, not a catch.  "Catch", "In flight" and "foul ball" all have their own definitions, and there is a bit of a contradiction, if you've never understood the game.

This was someone's poorly worded attempt to explain the difference.  

The intent was simple, and that's all we need to know.  There was meant to be a differentiation between a ball hit solidly, usually going mostly forward from the batter, and one that is deflected backward, and a further differentiation to a fly ball.

And the reasoning was simple.  They didn't want a "nicked" ball back to the catcher to result in a cheap out.  But there was a recognition that under some conditions it should be live.  And practically speaking, I think it was to make an early umpire's job easier to not have to distinguish between a caught third strike and a caught third strike foul tip.

[MadMax]

I'm going to throw my hat in the ring, and venture that the answer is hidden in another set of rules criteria...

Let's look at the other participants aside from the players. If a batted ball hits the batter (while in the box), it's a foul ball, regardless of where it ends up, right? If a batted ball directly hits a base coach, or the on-deck batter, or a batboy/girl, or the Plate Umpire, it too is a foul ball. These participants all have two things in common – they are allowed to be there, and their Initial / TOP Position is in foul territory.

The Rules define that 8 defenders are to be in Fair territory at TOP; the only one who is allowed to be in Foul Territory at TOP is the F2. We already have a definition of a Foul Tip spelled out – that the batted ball must go sharp and direct to the glove (or hand) of the F2. If it doesn't hit the glove first, and makes contact with any other part of the F2, it is to be considered as if it touched one of the other participants I listed above who start in Foul Territory, thus it is a Foul Ball.

If a batted ball is caught by a pitcher or catcher warming up in an exposed bullpen, is it an out (interference notwithstanding)? No. It's a foul ball, because that pitcher may be on the same team as the DT, but he's not one of the defined eight defenders who must be within Fair Territory at TOP. Thus, only these eight defenders can have a batted ball (in flight, as if a liner, pop-up or fly ball) touch them and still be considered Live.

Thanks to @Mister B for inspiring this response.