R2 fails to advance to 3rd

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Here's a fun one from HS game last week:

Bottom of 7th, score tied.  Bases loaded with 2 out.

Batter hits one hopper to F5 (why he didn't just step on 3rd...we'll never know).  F5 throws home, 6 feet over F2's head and to the backstop.  Game over...or is it?

R2 took a sharp left when he saw the throw was no good, went straight home to join the celebration.  Never got within 5 steps of 3rd.

Question 1:  How long should umpires stay on the field in this situation? 

Question 2:  By staying in our positions longer than we might normally, are we 'coaching' the defense.

 

[maven]

5 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Question 1:  How long should umpires stay on the field in this situation? 

Question 2:  By staying in our positions longer than we might normally, are we 'coaching' the defense.

1. Don't do anything different. When the "winning run" scores, I usually return baseballs to the home team, wait for my partner at the gate, and leave. I'd do exactly the same in your sitch.
2. See #1.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

7 minutes ago, maven said:

1. Don't do anything different. When the "winning run" scores, I usually return baseballs to the home team, wait for my partner at the gate, and leave. I'd do exactly the same in your sitch.
2. See #1.

That's pretty much what we did, but all the while I was walking toward the gate I kept wondering...what if somebody on defense had seen it, and they picked up the ball and went to tag R2 or the bag? 

[stkjock]

19 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

That's pretty much what we did, but all the while I was walking toward the gate I kept wondering...what if somebody on defense had seen it, and they picked up the ball and went to tag R2 or the bag? 

well if they had, would they not get your attention rather dramatically, also just based on experience, there would be a few moments between the time the play "ended" and the time you're walking off, IMHO there's enough time for the defense to react. 

[maven]

21 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

That's pretty much what we did, but all the while I was walking toward the gate I kept wondering...what if somebody on defense had seen it, and they picked up the ball and went to tag R2 or the bag? 

It's not an appeal unless it's an appeal to an umpire. They know how to get your attention.

[VolUmp]

On 4/28/2017 at 1:37 PM, FleasOf1000Camels said:

R2 took a sharp left when he saw the throw was no good, went straight home to join the celebration.  Never got within 5 steps of 3rd.

Why did you not call R2 out for abandonment?  That's still a force out, and it would nullify the run scored.

There's a difference between missing a base and abandonment.  I've always wondered about Merkle's boner from 1908.

It sounds like Fred should have been called out for abandonment anyway (yet I don't know if the rule existed back then ...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle's_Boner

[maven]

8 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Why did you not call R2 out for abandonment?

Maybe because his partner would have left him there to finish a game he so evidently didn't want to end that he had to extend it on his own initiative?

[Rich Ives]

12 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Why did you not call R2 out for abandonment?  That's still a force out, and it would nullify the run scored.

There's a difference between missing a base and abandonment.  I've always wondered about Merkle's boner from 1908.

It sounds like Fred should have been called out for abandonment anyway (yet I don't know if the rule existed back then ...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle's_Boner

Don't go there. The game is over the moment the winning run scores (unless successfully appealed). Make the defense appeal the baserunning error.

Note that in OBR R2 dies not need to advance.

[Jimurray]

4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Don't go there. The game is over the moment the winning run scores (unless successfully appealed). Make the defense appeal the baserunning error.

Note that in OBR R2 dies not need to advance.

R2 does need to advance on a batted ball. If the defense did not give up and threw to 3B it would be a force. 

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Don't go there. The game is over the moment the winning run scores (unless successfully appealed). Make the defense appeal the baserunning error.

Note that in OBR R2 dies not need to advance.

Forced runners are still required to get to their bases with two out, in spite of the weirdly ruled definition of when a game is over.  Do you really think the game is over with bases loaded, bottom of ninth tie game with two out, if R3 and BR reach their bases before F5, on a slow grounder, throws out Albert Pujols or some other slow R1 at second base?

It's not an appeal, it's a force.  

Even if you called abandonment I think that would be a time play and the run could still count.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Forced runners are still required to get to their bases on a batted ball  with two out, in spite of the weirdly ruled definition of when a game is over.  Do you really think the game is over with bases loaded, bottom of ninth tie game with two out, if R3 and BR reach their bases before F5, on a slow grounder, throws out Albert Pujols or some other slow R1 at second base?

It's not an appeal, it's a force.  

Even if you called abandonment I think that would be a time play and the run could still count.

Added red for you

[VolUmp]

14 hours ago, maven said:

Maybe because his partner would have left him there to finish a game he so evidently didn't want to end that he had to extend it on his own initiative?

Maven, this isn't a time to be cute.

The situation is a FORCE situation, thus, not a time play, and does not need to be appealed.  It is incumbent upon officials to call abandonment.

[VolUmp]

9 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Don't go there. The game is over the moment the winning run scores (unless successfully appealed). Make the defense appeal the base running error.

Note that in OBR R2 dies not need to advance.

Rich ... I don't know how you sleep at night ... I really don't.  Wrong and wrong.

[VolUmp]

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Even if you called abandonment I think that would be a time play and the run could still count.

You were SOOOOOOO close.  In a FORCE SITUATION, calling abandonment is still a force out.  It's just like tagging a player who is in a force situation.  All tags are not time plays.  Abandonment is not always a time play.  Missing a base and calling an out on appeal is not always a time play.  Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc.

[ElkOil]

23 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Why did you not call R2 out for abandonment?  That's still a force out, and it would nullify the run scored.

Who was it who recently said, "I can promise you that you wouldn't last a week around here.  You would be banished to the world of JV (with no partner) and Middle School."

[VolUmp]

2 hours ago, ElkOil said:

Who was it who recently said, "I can promise you that you wouldn't last a week around here.  You would be banished to the world of JV (with no partner) and Middle School."

That would be I ... and I see no relevance whatsoever to your comment.  If I called a runner out for abandonment around here in the above situation, I would be commended for calling the rule properly.

[noumpere]

Has OBR / PBUC / MLBUM (or heck, for that matter, FED -- I'm pretty sure there's some sort of case play on this) changed the ruling on this?  I only have old references handy at the moment, and here's a play from one of them:

 

R3, R1, game tied at 2-2, bottom of the ninth inning, 2 outs. Base hit.
R3 touches home plate as the apparent winning run and the batter-runner
touches first, but R1 goes to join in the celebration at home plate without
advancing to (or near) second base: technically, R1 is out for
abandonment, but this is not a force out, and the run can score. If the
defense were to appeal that R1 had not touched second, there would be a
force out, and no run. Hence, the umpire should not declare an out until
the defense appeals the missed base.

[maven]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

Has OBR / PBUC / MLBUM (or heck, for that matter, FED -- I'm pretty sure there's some sort of case play on this) changed the ruling on this? 

No, no changes.

The only out that can be recorded after the end of the game is an appeal, and the only appeal that will be granted is an advantageous one (that takes a run off the board). Abandonment is not an appeal, nor, evidently, a force out.

Someone is wondering why an appeal is a force out but not abandonment, as the runner must advance in both cases. The reason is that the defense puts out the runner in an appeal, so they get the benefit of a force out. The umpire calls out the runner for abandonment, so the defense does not get any additional benefit from that call.

[Jimurray]

So, taking @beerguy55 sit a little further, with one out, the second out we call on a game ending bases loaded DP at 3B and 2B more than likely will be an appeal for the force? But if the game ended with R3s score the appeal can not be honored with a dead ball?

[noumpere]

54 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

So, taking @beerguy55 sit a little further, with one out, the second out we call on a game ending bases loaded DP at 3B and 2B more than likely will be an appeal for the force? But if the game ended with R3s score the appeal can not be honored with a dead ball?

You can, if you wish, make F1 get on the rubber and then you can make the ball live and have the appeal (and, yes, you might need to bend the rule that requires a batter for this, etc. -- obviously that specific rule wasn't written with this situation in mind).  But, if it wasn't a over-the-fence home run, I'd just still consider the ball live.

[catsbackr]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Has OBR / PBUC / MLBUM (or heck, for that matter, FED -- I'm pretty sure there's some sort of case play on this) changed the ruling on this?  I only have old references handy at the moment, and here's a play from one of them:

 

R3, R1, game tied at 2-2, bottom of the ninth inning, 2 outs. Base hit.
R3 touches home plate as the apparent winning run and the batter-runner
touches first, but R1 goes to join in the celebration at home plate without
advancing to (or near) second base: technically, R1 is out for
abandonment, but this is not a force out, and the run can score. If the
defense were to appeal that R1 had not touched second, there would be a
force out, and no run. Hence, the umpire should not declare an out until
the defense appeals the missed base.

VolUmp, your response?

[Jimurray]

14 minutes ago, noumpere said:

You can, if you wish, make F1 get on the rubber and then you can make the ball live and have the appeal (and, yes, you might need to bend the rule that requires a batter for this, etc. -- obviously that specific rule wasn't written with this situation in mind).  But, if it wasn't a over-the-fence home run, I'd just still consider the ball live.

So with bases loaded and 1 out we have to note whether the second throw on a DP ball came before or after R3s score so as to rule properly on a TWP I might concoct when the second throw goes out of play.

[Rich Ives]

(3) If the home team scores the winning run in its half of
the ninth inning (or its half of an extra inning after a tie),
the game ends immediately when the winning run is
scored.

Defense gives up and fails to tag a forced base or runner - it's on them.

Call abandonment if you want but that's not a force so the run still scores.

 

[ElkOil]

18 hours ago, VolUmp said:

That would be I ... and I see no relevance whatsoever to your comment.  If I called a runner out for abandonment around here in the above situation, I would be commended for calling the rule properly.

[beerguy55]

On 5/2/2017 at 4:23 PM, Rich Ives said:

(3) If the home team scores the winning run in its half of
the ninth inning (or its half of an extra inning after a tie),
the game ends immediately when the winning run is
scored.

Defense gives up and fails to tag a forced base or runner - it's on them.

Call abandonment if you want but that's not a force so the run still scores.

 

But the question is, once that run crosses the plate, is the effort to get out the forced runners still advancing (whether they've run off to celebrate or not) still a traditional force, or is it now an appeal, and must it now be an "unmistakable" appeal.

Bases loaded, two out, full count with runners going on pitch...slow ground ball to F5.  Speedy R3 crosses plate, speedy BR gets to first, by rule ending the game.  F5 throws to F4 to force out slow R1.  Does he really have to declare an appeal?