Echoing Balk Calls

[Haid D' Salaami]

So im confused... If the NCAA wants us to Echo balks... Pro teaches it.. almost every D1 coordinator wants it... what level's do your bosses not want you to echo? and what is their reason? 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

So im confused... If the NCAA wants us to Echo balks... Pro teaches it.. almost every D1 coordinator wants it... what level's do your bosses not want you to echo? and what is their reason? 

I know of no level that does not want an echo. But there are many sits where the echo would just be a point, echoing the calling umpires call, and/or a time signal and an award point. This compilation has some instances of such. And one where U2 did not know Joe West had called a balk. 

 

[MadMax]

@humanbackstop19, that's a very... appropriate conclusion you've reached. Bravo. You touched on a sub-topic here, "conflict resolution protocol", that I will soon address with @jjb...

I had this long response all typed up and was in the course of editing it when other replies, from @Haid D' Salaami (whose insights are pretty poignant), @Jimurray (who even provided video... the contents of which illuminate a very applicable "truth"), @dumbdumb, @ElkOil and @Umpire in Chief (Ruh roh! We gotz da Chief involved!) all rolled in. Even @maven put forward – all leagues and levels of consequence want a/the Balk call echoed.

You have a concern about a coach asking / inquiring / arguing (take your pick) with you about a Balk being called, specifically if you're not the one who called it and are merely echoing it. First, how hard is it to just to redirect the inquiry to your partner who actually made the call (this "decision" you so focus on)? If you aren't the umpire who made the actual call of Balk, then the coach is asking you either by proximity (understandable), or because you've shown a trait he can or could exploit. Second, as the announcers at several points in the video montage state (and are they ever wrong? Heh... well, in this case, they are right), a Balk cannot be argued. So, knowing that, why would a coach be arguing with you? If a coach didn't know, you should, so why are you fearful of an argument ensuing? Just direct him towards the umpire who made the call, even it is for clarification.

Third and final, your refusal to echo...

Quote

Because he's going to see YOU calling the balk, and he's gonna want to know what YOU saw. Look, if I've seen the balk, I don't see an issue with telling the coach "no stop".  That's easy. It's when my partner calls a balk and I haven't the foggiest what the hell he's seen that I'm inserting myself into something I can't get myself out of.

... based on that you're "inserting yourself into something you can't get yourself out of", and that "he's gonna want to know what YOU saw." Flip that around, and your partner calls a Balk. You stand there, unmoved and aloof ("not inserted") because you haven't the foggiest what he could have seen. This ballbuster of a coach you so fear starts inquiring with your partner, "How can you call that a Balk?! He didn't balk! Your partner (you) didn't call a Balk! Hey (you)!! You didn't think it was a Balk, didja?!!!"

I think you're inserted into the sh!t now. Might want to keep a small shovel in your gear bag.

Just echo the Balk call, fercryin'outloud.

[jjb]

Thanks. Movin' on........

[celt62]

Just came from the clinic in Baltimore.  The new criteria for balks is going to be murder.

[Haid D' Salaami]

25 minutes ago, celt62 said:

Just came from the clinic in Baltimore.  The new criteria for balks is going to be murder.

How.. how is it gonna be murder?.. is it any different than you've done before?

 

Holy cow...

[Umpire in Chief]

One thing that was said at the Baltimore clinic about this, and I believe it was Greg Street who said it, was in an instance where the calling umpire doesn't step up "Coach the call originated with ..." Initially I liked it but I just see it leading to more conflict, so I have mixed feelings about that.

[ALStripes17]

Baltimore diving a little deeper into the weeds than ATL did, I guess haha

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[BT_Blue]

19 hours ago, celt62 said:

Just came from the clinic in Baltimore.  The new criteria for balks is going to be murder.

Care to explain?

[celt62]

19 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

How.. how is it gonna be murder?.. is it any different than you've done before?

 

Holy cow...

 

28 minutes ago, BT_Blue said:

Care to explain?

This all has to do with balks and not echoing.  I should have put it under rules instead.  The new criteria where if the shoulders are facing an imaginary box that goes from each 45 foot line to the plate and he takes a sign he is officially in the windup position.  The Craig Kimbrel look is a balk.  No more stretch and turn the shoulders in while taking a sign. They want from the stretch to maintain being squared up to either third or first base.  No matter where your feet are if those shoulders turn in for a sign they want a balk.  No one on base is a warning.  Runner on, no warning and an automatic balk.  Coaches are going to flip out.  They provided MLB video to back it up.  If I can track down the video I'll throw it on. They did touch on echoing by saying the initial caller should step up and say that he had it before any confusion ensues.  Sorry about the confusion.  That's why you shouldn't post after your flight.

[ALStripes17]

This all has to do with balks and not echoing.  I should have put it under rules instead.  The new criteria where if the shoulders are facing an imaginary box that goes from each 45 foot line to the plate and he takes a sign he is officially in the windup position.  The Craig Kimbrel look is a balk.  No more stretch and turn the shoulders in while taking a sign. They want from the stretch to maintain being squared up to either third or first base.  No matter where your feet are if those shoulders turn in for a sign they want a balk.  No one on base is a warning.  Runner on, no warning and an automatic balk.  Coaches are going to flip out.  They provided MLB video to back it up.  If I can track down the video I'll throw it on. They did touch on echoing by saying the initial caller should step up and say that he had it before any confusion ensues.  Sorry about the confusion.  That's why you shouldn't post after your flight.

Umm... That whole 45 degree line for the set position was for when the pitcher actually comes set. Common sense prevails here. The problem was pitchers looking like they were in the set position then making a wind-up delivery... It's not difficult

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[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Umm... That whole 45 degree line for the set position was for when the pitcher actually comes set. Common sense prevails here. The problem was pitchers looking like they were in the set position then making a wind-up delivery... It's not difficult

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Who is dissadvantaged by a pitcher looking like they are in the set and winding up? Not that you can't tell whether most sideways MLB pitchers were going to windup or come set by other clues besides their feet. What college pitcher has been confusing coaches and players or is it umpires who are confused? 

[ALStripes17]

Who is dissadvantaged by a pitcher looking like they are in the set and winding up? Not that you can't tell whether most sideways MLB pitchers were going to windup or come set by other clues besides their feet. What college pitcher has been confusing coaches and players or is it umpires who are confused? 

Reasoning given at the ATL clinic was that it's a disadvantage for batters but moreso runners on third base...This has been tinkered with in the NCAA the last few years (and FED for that matter).

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[celt62]

14 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Umm... That whole 45 degree line for the set position was for when the pitcher actually comes set. Common sense prevails here. The problem was pitchers looking like they were in the set position then making a wind-up delivery... It's not difficult

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They clearly stated to us that it was NOT when he actually comes set.  If he takes the sign with shoulders in and tries to go from a standard set position after he will have been considered to have started from a windup.  Not his final movement.  They repeated this point over and over.

 

7 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Who is dissadvantaged by a pitcher looking like they are in the set and winding up? Not that you can't tell whether most sideways MLB pitchers were going to windup or come set by other clues besides their feet. What college pitcher has been confusing coaches and players or is it umpires who are confused? 

The rules editor explained it as over the past few years that from a windup position the pitchers have started to turn and rotate to the point of looking like they were going from a set position when in actuality it was a windup.  They wanted to stop it.  Personally I've never seen it in the northeast but it must have been happening elsewhere.

[kstrunk]

I'm taking a guess, but perhaps, if they can further define & clarify the positions, they can prevent the following:

Pitcher looks like he's in the windup, but he really isn't. R1 thinks pitcher is in the windup, so he goes on first move, but the pitcher is really only coming set, and now he's got the runner picked off. 

Thus, if the pitcher's chest and shoulders are GENERALLY facing the batter (home plate), and he comes  set, it's a balk. 

???

[dumbdumb]

On the echo part. Why did they even have to say the initial/calling umpire should 'step up'? Are the initial/calling umpires not stepping up? So, they are the initial caller and then just letting their partners take all the grief? How would one even get College games by being the initial caller and letting everyone else handle all the crapola. Seems like that person wouldn't even/ever call a balk to start with. What gives?

[ALStripes17]

The rules editor explained it as over the past few years that from a windup position the pitchers have started to turn and rotate to the point of looking like they were going from a set position when in actuality it was a windup.  They wanted to stop it.  Personally I've never seen it in the northeast but it must have been happening elsewhere.

You may want to be sure of that clarification... Bc not a single person in ATL believes Kimbrel would be balked for his shoulder position while taking signs

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