Volunteer LL umpires

[basejester]

32 minutes ago, GPblue said:

and what does that 7.5 million a year pay for?

http://www.littleleague.org/media/llnewsarchive/2015/May-August/Grow-The-Game-Announcement.htm

 

[stkjock]

52 minutes ago, GPblue said:

and what does that 7.5 million a year pay for?

probably the complexes they have for the regional tournaments, the WP complex, paying for all the teams to be housed, fed and equipped at the LLWS, lowering local league fees (IIRC that was done last year for the local LLs /\ Basejester posted the link above - I hadn't seen the post prior to my posting),  the small stipend the vol umps get and I'm sure some salaries for LL staff as well.

 

I have no issue with umpires being paid - our local league has for the last 7 years I've been involved.  Frankly I never knew it was different until 3 years ago or such. 

[Rich Ives]

6 hours ago, JaxRolo said:

LL needs to play real baseball

90' bases. 60'6" pitching distance.  325 - 400 -325 outfield fences. No pitching restrictions. No mandatory play. No age restrictions. No territorial restrictions. 

You sure?

[JaxRolo]

What does that even mean?

Personally, I am thrilled that there is no leading and, subsequently, 45 pickoff throws to first base.

The only thing I'd change is I'd move the fences back another 25 feet.

I just like leading off. Just me. Especially for 12yo

[stkjock]

1 hour ago, JaxRolo said:

I just like leading off. Just me. Especially for 12yo

U like calling balks I take it

[Stk004]

14 minutes ago, stkjock said:

U like calling balks I take it

Nothing like the shocked faces you get after yelling "THAT'S A BALK!" 

[ALStripes17]

I just like leading off. Just me. Especially for 12yo

I agree.. it's tough for some 12 yo to go from 46-60 fields to a 60-90 school ball field as a 13 yo/7th grader. Progression doesn't seem to make sense in many areas

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[JaxRolo]

U like calling balks I take it

Hell yeah!!! That's how they learn

[basejester]

Within Little League, a 12 year-old can play 46/60, 50/70, or 60/90.  Or 46/60 and 50/70.  Or 50/70 and 60/90.  Or 46/60 and then 60/90 in the same year.  A local league has a lot of discretion and some leagues are putting all of their 12s into open bases.  ESPN celebrates the traditional 46/60 tournament, but there's other stuff going on.

 

[lawump]

I know in one sense I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but look at Cooperstown Dreams Park.  (Which I know nothing about...except what I read on this site and what I went and looked up on their website in order to write this post.)

In 2017, each team will have to pay $995 per person (coach or player) to attend CDP.  There is a 13 person (11 players & 2 coaches) minimum requirement per team.  Let's assume each team brings the minimum.  That's $12,935 per team.

It appears that 104 teams play each week.  That's $1,345,240 per week.  They have 13 weeks.  That's $17,488,120 per year.  Plus, I see on their website that they have corporate sponsorships (and I understand why companies advertise with CDP...that's a lot of families spending a week there!).  Plus, CDP apparently sells shirts (and a bunch of other clothing), photos, videos, souvenirs and concessions which all generate revenue.  Plus, I believe I read in one on-line newspaper story that they get a kick-back from the hotels.

Now I know CDP has overhead (although it appears that a lot of their labor overhead is reduced by the fact that a lot of their work force appear to be low-paid or no-paid college interns), and I have no idea the amount of their overhead.  But, you're telling me that with that type of gross revenue they can't pay the umpires?  (I don't consider lodging and free sandwiches/grub to be "pay".  Nor do I consider the "free" umpire shirts and caps with the CDP logo on them (so they can't be used anywhere else) to be pay.  Those are marketing items for CDP).

Little League, I'm sure earns way, way more in revenue than CDP from corporate sponsorships and television rights fees, alone.  I'm sure Little League makes more gross revenue during their regional and world series tournaments alone than CDP makes all summer.  And they can't afford to pay their umpires?

The answer is that, of course, both entities can afford to pay their umpires.

The reason neither pays is because they don't have to pay.  If all umpires boycotted and refused to work for them, they would pay real fast.  If all umpires were to boycott ("strike"), do you think the boycott would last long?  Do you think either organization would refuse to pay, thus prolonging any such boycott, due to some idealistic grand principle ("it's for the kids,") they have as an organization?  Hell no!  They'd pay right away because they would never walk away from that kind of revenue.  Paying umpires would put such a tiny dent in these two entities' revenues that either entity would quickly pay if ever faced with the situation of all umpires refusing to work their games.  I'm guessing that paying their umpires the same game fees these umpires are normally paid when working comparable games in other organizations would put a smaller dent in these two organization's gross revenues than the size of the dent all MLB umpires' salaries puts in MLB's nearly $10b in annual revenues.

Yet, these two entities don't pay because they don't have to pay.  Why? Because there is a steady supply of umpires who: (1) are willing to work for free (whether they work for free because they drink and believe these two entities' Kool-aide that "it's for the kids," or whether they do it for some other reason...I have no idea); and, (2) possess a (umpiring) skill set that is acceptable to those two organizations (in other words, these two organizations feel no need nor any pressure to pay for "better" umpires).  

If you're mad at these two organizations for not paying umpires, I think your anger is misplaced.  They are acting the way many corporations/businesses (even non-profits) act in a capitalist system.  They're refusing to voluntarily increase their overhead when they feel no pressure to do so.  (And I am NOT anti-capitalist.  My last two sentences are not a value judgment.  I'm not attacking corporations.  Hell, I'm a business owner and I do the same thing).

If you are angry, be mad at us umpires (at least those among us who work games for these non-paying organizations).  We umpires could end volunteer umpiring tomorrow if we refused to work their games for free for the reason I stated above:  if faced with the choice of losing all of that revenue or losing a tiny, tiny fraction of their net revenues due to having to pay umpires...they would clearly go with the latter and not the former.  But, that will never happen because too many of us enjoy (or at least tolerate) working for free.

Do you know why high schools in my state pay umpires?  Because if they didn't, they would not be able to get anyone to umpire their games (at least not anyone who possesses an umpiring skill set acceptable to the coaches, athletic directors and principals who run high school baseball.)  For Little League to start paying umpires, one of two things would have to happen: (1) the development of a severe umpire shortage (presumably because umpires refuse to work for free); or, (2) some external, third-party force would have to be applied to Little League to cause Little League to change its opinion as to what it deems is an acceptable umpiring skill set that it requires its umpires to possess in order to work the regionals and/or World Series AND Little League also determining that it has to pay umpires in order to secure the services of those umpires who possess this new, higher umpiring skill set.

Anyways, that's my theory as I lay in bed on a late Friday evening after a long work week.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

I agree.. it's tough for some 12 yo to go from 46-60 fields to a 60-90 school ball field as a 13 yo/7th grader. Progression doesn't seem to make sense in many areas

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You know who fares better making that transition to 60-90 baseball as 13 year olds? Upper-echelon travel / academy ball  players playing on 50-70 fields. OBR with a few safety modifications. If you want increased offense, put the fences at 200' like CDP and CRE do.

I get that the diminutive dimensions LL uses is evocative of the local neighborhood sandlot, but those days are gone. Chicago getting caught shuffling kids around in defiance of district boundaries is symptomatic of the problem; a problem compounded by featuring this comically small arena on a lucrative ESPN contract. It becomes a cash-grab instead of the celebration of youth baseball like they claim it to be. But the kids get their spotlights, the parents get to show up on TV with frequent camera pans of the stands, and ESPN gets its fist-pumps, dog piles, drama and tears in spades.

CDP, for all its shortcomings (and perceived pretentiousness) is far more equalitarian and, well, frank in its format. 13 weeks of 104 teams each week. Each team is guaranteed at least 7 games (monsoons notwithstanding), with a cumulative tournament winnowing them down til one champion remains. No pitch count – if you've got a dealer today, you can ride him as long as you want. Maybe we'd see less fragile arms in high school, college and the Minors if we let these kids be kids and throw... Let them build their arm strength up for endurance. Pitch to contact with a defense that has a better chance to do something about it (such as throw out basestealers and turn double plays) instead of trying to pitch strikeouts, only to see a screwup go 202' over the fence. On that note, maybe just maybe, small ball, hit-and-run and situational hitting might just become featured points of development instead of every kid up there trying to knock it out of the too-small park. I'm with Rich on this one... move the fences back.

LL _has_ 50-70 baseball. It's called Intermediate. Why isn't _that_ featured on ESPN??

[stkjock]

 

 

@MadMax many LLs do not have 50/70 programs, of the 7 towns in our district only one had a 50/70 division this year. 

[basejester]

3 hours ago, stkjock said:

 

@MadMax many LLs do not have 50/70 programs, of the 7 towns in our district only one had a 50/70 division this year. 

There were many capable 12 year-olds in our local league.  I (the president) encouraged them to play in the intermediate division.  They said no, because the 46/60 tournament is on TV.  These are kids playing 50/70 on their travel teams and 60/90 in their middle school teams.  They want a lottery ticket for the TV appearance.

That said, there are many, many 11 and 12 year-olds for whom 46/60 with closed bases works better.  Don't let the TV thing skew your perspective.

 

[maineump]

4 hours ago, stkjock said:

 

 

@MadMax many LLs do not have 50/70 programs, of the 7 towns in our district only one had a 50/70 division this year. 

I don't believe there are any 50/70 in Maine. I may be wrong, but there are no tournaments for them.

[maineump]

I have been reading all of the comments here. Sure LL and CDP make money. LL umpires big payment are the WS for the different levels, and it sounds like the CDP umpires get their 'expenses' paid by a sponsoring team.

I have seen and worked with some very good umpires in the LL divisions. Many of the good ones work HS and even College ball, but they donate their time to LL. What is wrong with helping out the kids? Helping new umpires learn? These guys wouldn't do it, unless they felt they were doing the right thing.

I have been around the US and even to Guam to do LL tournaments. A few have been on TV, but the experience of the trips is what I remember the best, the only thing I remember about TV games, is that they slow the game down to a crawl.

I also travel to do college games, and from what I am told, most of those are at least can be seen on the computer. The TV thing is over rated.

I umpire because I enjoy the game (we will never get rich doing it). Granted LL and college are two different animals, but I enjoy each game for their own reasons. The college games are generally well played, good pitching and they move along. The LL games are fun (generally) because the kids try hard and have fun (as long as the parents let them). You can see the smile on their face for the great plays/hits and that is fun, because they are enjoying the game that we love.

In LL, we have a chance to help these kids love the game. By the time they are in HS, you can't tell them anything. I make enough money to cover my costs (and more), so why not give back?

Just my .02.

[RichMSN]

I have been reading all of the comments here. Sure LL and CDP make money. LL umpires big payment are the WS for the different levels, and it sounds like the CDP umpires get their 'expenses' paid by a sponsoring team.

I have seen and worked with some very good umpires in the LL divisions. Many of the good ones work HS and even College ball, but they donate their time to LL. What is wrong with helping out the kids? Helping new umpires learn? These guys wouldn't do it, unless they felt they were doing the right thing.

I have been around the US and even to Guam to do LL tournaments. A few have been on TV, but the experience of the trips is what I remember the best, the only thing I remember about TV games, is that they slow the game down to a crawl.

I also travel to do college games, and from what I am told, most of those are at least can be seen on the computer. The TV thing is over rated.

I umpire because I enjoy the game (we will never get rich doing it). Granted LL and college are two different animals, but I enjoy each game for their own reasons. The college games are generally well played, good pitching and they move along. The LL games are fun (generally) because the kids try hard and have fun (as long as the parents let them). You can see the smile on their face for the great plays/hits and that is fun, because they are enjoying the game that we love.

In LL, we have a chance to help these kids love the game. By the time they are in HS, you can't tell them anything. I make enough money to cover my costs (and more), so why not give back?

Just my .02.

I couldn't have said it better with respect to how I view LL.

[JaxRolo]

Where I lived when I grew up we all played on the same big field 60/90 from the time I was like 10yo.

We adapted and overcame.

[stkjock]

5 hours ago, basejester said:

There were many capable 12 year-olds in our local league.  I (the president) encouraged them to play in the intermediate division.  They said no, because the 46/60 tournament is on TV.  These are kids playing 50/70 on their travel teams and 60/90 in their middle school teams.  They want a lottery ticket for the TV appearance.

That said, there are many, many 11 and 12 year-olds for whom 46/60 with closed bases works better.  Don't let the TV thing skew your perspective.

 

Oh for us too the 12s were 50/70 capable.  We had half a dozen playing MIddle School ball at 60/90 and BBCOR Bats. 

 we had no Intermidiate division in our league.  The do,have a WS for intermediate. 

 

http://www.llbws.org/llbbws/intermediate5070/worldseries.htm

 

it was televised IIRC, but the 12s get all the attention.  

[maineump]

4 hours ago, JaxRolo said:

Where I lived when I grew up we all played on the same big field 60/90 from the time I was like 10yo.

We adapted and overcame.

I agree, we played in any place we could. Very often it wasn't on a baseball field. Baseball, wiffle ball, stick ball - whatever, it was all good.

[udbrky]

3 minutes ago, maineump said:

I agree, we played in any place we could. Very often it wasn't on a baseball field. Baseball, wiffle ball, stick ball - whatever, it was all good.

Organized leagues?

[JoeC]

5 hours ago, RichMSN said:

I couldn't have said it better with respect to how I view LL.

 

6 hours ago, maineump said:

 

I umpire because I enjoy the game (we will never get rich doing it).

 

I to umpire because I enjoy the game. Even though I don't get paid with money in LL I do get paid by seeing the enjoyment that the players have for the game. Seeing each player grow, especially a 9 year old who couldn't catch a cold a the beginning of the year catch the final out of a playoff game to put their team in the league final. Most of all just seeing the kids grow. 

[maineump]

26 minutes ago, udbrky said:

Organized leagues?

Yeah - I played organized summer leagues (LL, Babe Ruth,Senior League, Legion), but when we didn't have team stuff - we played anyhow. Not like today's kids who play other sports or video games. Only played on 60' diamond until 12 years old.

[udbrky]

2 minutes ago, maineump said:

Yeah - I played organized summer leagues (LL, Babe Ruth,Senior League, Legion), but when we didn't have team stuff - we played anyhow. Not like today's kids who play other sports or video games. Only played on 60' diamond until 12 years old.

Oh, I think @JaxRolo meant organized. I thought you meant you played in a whiffle ball league, which sounds amazing!

[lawump]

I've worked six American Legion "national tournaments".  (American Legion considers the regionals and World Series to be national tournaments because they are run directly by the national office (or their appointed staff)).  At each, I've been paid.  Am I paid much?  No.  My pay has been almost the same (or a little less) than what I get paid to work one non-conference game at an ACC or SEC school.  At some Legion national tournaments I've worked 8-9 games, including 3 plate jobs, for the pay of one game at third-base at an ACC or SEC school.  [Full disclosure: when I did the World Series, in addition to my pay I was reimbursed for mileage (other umpires had airline tickets purchased for them), provided a nice hotel room, and I was paid $50 a day for food...although I never spent that much on food due to all the food we're provided in the locker room.  I was similarly reimbursed at the regionals.]

But here's the thing: American Legion is not flush with cash.  The amount they pay me (and my crew mates) is a sizable expense to them.  Legion's television rights fees and corporate sponsorships pale in comparison to Little League.  But the fact that they pay me shows me that they value the services I provide them.  Among all organizations sponsoring baseball in the United States, the American Legion could, should they want to, pull at every heart string to get volunteer umpires.  They could say that umpires should volunteer because American Legion baseball teaches young men valuable life-long lessons...including what it means to be a Patriot and what it means to be a citizen in the US.  They could say that umpires should volunteer their time in order to help teach these valuable lessons to teenage players.  The American Legion, among all baseball entities, has, in my opinion, the highest moral soapbox to stand on to justify requiring umpires to be "volunteers".  

But they don't stand on that soapbox.  They value our services enough that they feel and believe we should be paid.

Little League has far more cash than Legion.  Little League is the most valuable name/commodity in youth sports.  They could pay their umpires at their national tournaments and it would not hurt their bottom line.  Now, I'm sure that there are local little leagues in economically depressed areas of the country that would struggle to pay umpires during their "regular season" (before all-star teams are selected)...but at the national level (regionals/world series) that is not the case.  Unlike Legion, Little League (despite having far more money) choses to stand on their soapbox to justify not paying umpires.  

I, personally, believe that Little League's reasons for not paying umpires is crap.  In my opinion, Little League long ago abandoned being solely "for the kids".  I believe they're "for the money," too.  If others choose to agree/believe Little League's justifications for not paying umpires, and have no problems umpiring for free...then more power to them, this is America after all. They are free to disagree with my (and many others') objection to Little League's position...especially since I have zero desire to work Little League games for reasons other than a lack of pay.

In sum, (not to sound too egotistical, LOL), but what I bring to an organization (my umpire skill set) is too valuable to be "donated".  I will certainly work for an amount less than what I think I am worth if I believe in that organization (one example for me is Legion), especially when the amount that entity does pay me represents a sizable dent in their bottom line.

ASIDE:  The enjoyment some umpires have stated they get from umpiring Little League (such as seeing a player learn the game, kids grow as players and people, etc.) and getting paid are not two mutually exclusive items.  You can (and likely will) get this same satisfaction from working these games if you were paid.

 

[maineump]

1 minute ago, udbrky said:

Oh, I think @JaxRolo meant organized. I thought you meant you played in a whiffle ball league, which sounds amazing!

 We actually did have a 4 on 4 wiffle ball league - between neighborhood teams. It was a blast. Target for called strikes, throw at the runners and we wore gloves and could use home-made bats. There were 4 teams, all of us played organized ball together, but we were enemies on the wiffle ball field.