Second ejection in two weeks, restriction and then partner ejection

[Mudisfun]

I am not enjoying this trend; had my second ejection yesterday for exactly the same thing as last week with a player which led to restricting an Assistant and his eventual EJ by my partner.

JV baseball - 2 man crew, league game

R1, 1 out new batter and I am in B. Pitcher picks off R1 and I bang him out. R1 does not like the call and is showing his displeasure which is not over the top but before I can even get to the knock it off stage R1 turns towards the fencing and slams his helmet into the ground. I am 99.9% sure he yelled everyone's favorite 4 letter word at this point but with the ambient noise and the 1st base coach starting to complain about the call in the 5 seconds since making the call I could not be 100% on what he yelled. The retired R1 is behind the 1st base coach so the coach is completely unaware of what just occurred as I eject his player for unsportsmanlike conduct and throwing his equipment. The player quickly gets hold of himself and thankfully went directly to his dug out; no further issue with him...

Now the real fun begins...

The 1st BC as I am within 5 feet of him is trying to argue the call at 1st... Really? I just EJed your player and why are you involved? I tell him I have an out even as he is still arguing, telling me how great I am and how much he enjoys me being on the field... all this in the next 5 - 10 seconds. I remind him adamantly he is not the HC and that he needs to go to his position and I will communicate with the HC. 

HC finally makes it over from the 3rd base box and is none too happy. He is insinuating that I ejected his player due to his looks and gestures (nothing offensive) and states I am taking it personally and that his player deserved a warning. As I try and get a word in Mr. Assistant know it all tries to jump back into the conversation at which point I tell him he is through talking to me and I restrict him to the dugout for the remainder of the game. I ask the HC if he wants to know what occurred or not? I explain to him his player was ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct and that throwing equipment is an auto ejection pure and simple. I explained I had an out. I understand the player disagreed with the call but that had no bearing on his ejection as he did not do anything up to that point to warrant being ejected but it was his actions after that caused his removal from the game.

At this point I ask the HC for the full name of the player I ejected. He responds with it is on the line up card (which I don't have being the field umpire). My partner comes over and brings the card out but the player is listed as First Initial and his last name. Fine... you want to be an ass when I again ask for the first name and do not get a reply then so be it. I ask him the name for his Assistant and the HC is not real forthcoming with the information again. His name is whatever... how do you spell that (not common last name)? "I don't know." Really coach you don't know the name of your coach? OK thanks coach. What I failed to do here was also restrict the HC to the dugout which per the rule I should have but honestly this is all going south quickly and I forgot.

Game goes on...

Next inning a foul ball stops between the dugout and the HP area. My partner is distracted and I see Mr. restricted to the dugout leave to get the ball. I remind him as he gets a step out that he is restricted and to get in the dugout now. He gives me some silly smirk like this is a big game to him. An out later as I move from my position back to A all hell breaks loose... I see my partner finishing his ejection mechanic and BOOM! Mr. restricted to the dugout coach who is not in the dugout is going ballistic... F bombs everywhere on top of getting himself all puffed up. I run to the scene and play rodeo clown which in this situation is real fun since this guy is not liking me already. This guy is HOT. F this, F you, F you both, F everything etc, I am not talking to you but your Fing partner etc... All the time I am calmly saying "you have to go coach, you have to leave. Time to go coach blah blah blah." Even his parents are telling him to go.

Finally get this guy down the line (exit gate is between 1st and R/F fence) where he exits the field but decides to set up camp again. I head out that way... gotta go coach as he sends more F bombs my way... finally he leaves and the game continues with no further issues.

WOW... I absolutely could not believe this guy... what a day.

 

 

 

 

[maven]

Have you thought about ways you might have handled it differently/better, or did you just need to vent?

[lawump]

8 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

I am not enjoying this trend; had my second ejection yesterday for exactly the same thing as last week with a player which led to restricting an Assistant and his eventual EJ by my partner.

JV baseball - 2 man crew, league game

R1, 1 out new batter and I am in B. Pitcher picks off R1 and I bang him out. R1 does not like the call and is showing his displeasure which is not over the top but before I can even get to the knock it off stage R1 turns towards the fencing and slams his helmet into the ground. I am 99.9% sure he yelled everyone's favorite 4 letter word at this point but with the ambient noise and the 1st base coach starting to complain about the call in the 5 seconds since making the call I could not be 100% on what he yelled. The retired R1 is behind the 1st base coach so the coach is completely unaware of what just occurred as I eject his player for unsportsmanlike conduct and throwing his equipment. The player quickly gets hold of himself and thankfully went directly to his dug out; no further issue with him...

Now the real fun begins...

The 1st BC as I am within 5 feet of him is trying to argue the call at 1st... Really? I just EJed your player and why are you involved? I tell him I have an out even as he is still arguing, telling me how great I am and how much he enjoys me being on the field... all this in the next 5 - 10 seconds. I remind him adamantly he is not the HC and that he needs to go to his position and I will communicate with the HC. 

HC finally makes it over from the 3rd base box and is none too happy. He is insinuating that I ejected his player due to his looks and gestures (nothing offensive) and states I am taking it personally and that his player deserved a warning. As I try and get a word in Mr. Assistant know it all tries to jump back into the conversation at which point I tell him he is through talking to me and I restrict him to the dugout for the remainder of the game. I ask the HC if he wants to know what occurred or not? I explain to him his player was ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct and that throwing equipment is an auto ejection pure and simple. I explained I had an out. I understand the player disagreed with the call but that had no bearing on his ejection as he did not do anything up to that point to warrant being ejected but it was his actions after that caused his removal from the game.

At this point I ask the HC for the full name of the player I ejected. He responds with it is on the line up card (which I don't have being the field umpire). My partner comes over and brings the card out but the player is listed as First Initial and his last name. Fine... you want to be an ass when I again ask for the first name and do not get a reply then so be it. I ask him the name for his Assistant and the HC is not real forthcoming with the information again. His name is whatever... how do you spell that (not common last name)? "I don't know." Really coach you don't know the name of your coach? OK thanks coach. What I failed to do here was also restrict the HC to the dugout which per the rule I should have but honestly this is all going south quickly and I forgot.

Game goes on...

Next inning a foul ball stops between the dugout and the HP area. My partner is distracted and I see Mr. restricted to the dugout leave to get the ball. I remind him as he gets a step out that he is restricted and to get in the dugout now. He gives me some silly smirk like this is a big game to him. An out later as I move from my position back to A all hell breaks loose... I see my partner finishing his ejection mechanic and BOOM! Mr. restricted to the dugout coach who is not in the dugout is going ballistic... F bombs everywhere on top of getting himself all puffed up. I run to the scene and play rodeo clown which in this situation is real fun since this guy is not liking me already. This guy is HOT. F this, F you, F you both, F everything etc, I am not talking to you but your Fing partner etc... All the time I am calmly saying "you have to go coach, you have to leave. Time to go coach blah blah blah." Even his parents are telling him to go.

Finally get this guy down the line (exit gate is between 1st and R/F fence) where he exits the field but decides to set up camp again. I head out that way... gotta go coach as he sends more F bombs my way... finally he leaves and the game continues with no further issues.

WOW... I absolutely could not believe this guy... what a day.

 

 

 

 

First ejection is solid.  Good job.  I have no idea from your description what caused the second ejection, but based on your description you did a real good job playing rodeo clown.

The only issue I have, is why ask for their names?  Who cares.  Where it asks "Name of Ejected Person" on the ejection report form, just put "First base coach #21 (name unknown)" or "#34, identified on line-up card as J. Jones". 

By asking for names, you are trying to get people to cooperate with you who are already mad, upset, pissed off at you.  That is an almost guaranteed way to throw gasoline on the fire. 

In my state, the state high school association will be calling the school principal and athletic director the next morning (at the latest) and getting the necessary information.

[Mudisfun]

1 hour ago, lawump said:

First ejection is solid.  Good job.  I have no idea from your description what caused the second ejection, but based on your description you did a real good job playing rodeo clown.

The only issue I have, is why ask for their names?  Who cares.  Where it asks "Name of Ejected Person" on the ejection report form, just put "First base coach #21 (name unknown)" or "#34, identified on line-up card as J. Jones". 

By asking for names, you are trying to get people to cooperate with you who are already mad, upset, pissed off at you.  That is an almost guaranteed way to throw gasoline on the fire. 

In my state, the state high school association will be calling the school principal and athletic director the next morning (at the latest) and getting the necessary information.

Excellent advice which I will definitely use in the future.

The 2nd ejection from my partner was the Assistant coach coming out of the dugout again for whatever reason. Since he was restricted and reminded once he decided he no longer needed to be there.  

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, Mudisfun said:

Excellent advice which I will definitely use in the future.

The 2nd ejection from my partner was the Assistant coach coming out of the dugout again for whatever reason. Since he was restricted and reminded once he decided he no longer needed to be there.  

OC baseball, brother.

[Mudisfun]

Have you thought about ways you might have handled it differently/better, or did you just need to vent?

Little of both.

5 years doing games and my only 2 ejections have been for the same thing a week apart. After seeing this coaches display which completely shocked me to be honest I understand the lack of control by the players.

As to handling it differently I am completely open to suggestions... As@lawump suggested I will not be asking for names but just recording position and number and then pulling from the lineup card or describing the person from here on.

Additional thoughts/suggestions?

[VAUmp]

When you restricted the AC, you should have restricted the HC as well.  

 

Also, where was the AD/Game Manager?

[Old Skool]

Restricting the HC at the same time as the AC would have put him in the dugout in order to police him possibly & as you mentioned would definetely have been supported by the rulebook.  It would have also made it easier to dump the HC too for not controlling his AC.  With that kind of charade I would have no reservations for getting them both.  

[Mudisfun]

When you restricted the AC, you should have restricted the HC as well.  

 

Also, where was the AD/Game Manager?

100% agree. Completely screwed the pooch on that pry of the rule enforcement.

The team being naughty was the visitors... AD/game manager? Not there apparently.

[maven]

11 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

Additional thoughts/suggestions?

You said a couple things that made it sound like a shouting match. "I tell him I have an out even as he is still arguing..." "As I try and get a word in Mr. Assistant know it all tries to jump back into the conversation...." That sounds like way too much work. The AC disagreed with your out call at 1B. How about just saying, "OK." Why argue, when you will not convince him? 

One of my big teaching points in our association is that we can prevent a lot of ejections by not trying to convince people. Answer questions, acknowledge statements. Fake questions, such as, "How could you call him out?" Should be answered simply, as if they were requests for information: "I had the ball beating the runner." He can have a moment to vent, and then, "OK, let's get back to the game." We can then use our regular progression of informal warning, formal warning + restriction, and ejection at that point, if needed.

Never address a group. The conversation has to stop when you're outnumbered, and it can continue only when you have one person (probably the HC) and nobody else is within earshot. If needed, send him to the dugout: "Coach, we cannot continue this conversation until everyone else has moved away." If they refuse to comply, start your progression.

"I ask the HC if he wants to know what occurred or not?" This strikes me as confrontational (maybe tone and context would change that impression). But along with the rest of your report, it sounds as if you were worked up and just as much in their faces as they were in yours.

Next time, consider trying a different approach. Wait until he asks you a question, then answer it simply and directly. Don't argue. When he starts to repeat himself — which happens relatively fast, as only 2 things happened — you can get back to baseball.

[MPLSMatt]

Wow. This is truly shocking behavior from scholastically affiliated baseball.  My perception is that if any coach of a high school team used this many F bombs, for this long of a period at the volume described, in my area he'd be terminated by the school.  These are kids participating in a scholastic activity, after all...  We see this stuff a lot in legion, and travel ball (just like everyone else) but in MN the schools have fairly high expectations for their coaches.  

Also, in probably 250 JV games, I've never had a game manager or AD present.  

 

[Mudisfun]

@maven - the A/C at the point of restriction was loud and animated but was not screaming/yelling at all. My tone was conversational at the first part of the conversation when he started on about the call, stern at the part where I told him he needed to stop and I would talk to the HC and icy when I restricted him. No yelling or shouting and the A/C although annoying was not yet over the top. 

At the point when my partner ejected him he went absolutely nuts. My entire conversation with him was you have to go.. time to go etc... I never once yelled or shouted at him; stern and non-compromising yes,  but I can see where getting into a shouting match would be the thought and possibly the demeanor I conveyed in the narrative. 

I like your advise and will defiantly use it and would have used it had the situation not gone from a simple out to his player going for his actions and then the ensuing brew haha. Thank you for your well thought out and reasoned reply.

 

@MPLSMatt I was completely shocked by the demonstration the A/C gave all of us. Your thought is the same as mine... this is HS baseball... what a fine teachable moment you just gave the kids.

[grayhawk]

@Mudisfun   I'm not clear on where the AC was standing when you restricted him to the dugout.  Was he at the 1B coaches box, or had he left that position?

[Mudisfun]

@grayhawk he was out of the box. I was 10' or so from 1st base in the infield.

[grayhawk]

20 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

@grayhawk he was out of the box. I was 10' or so from 1st base in the infield.

So it sounds like the 1BC came into the infield to argue the call, and then stayed there while the HC came over from the 3B coaches box.  I would like to offer the following:

Priority number one should be getting the AC back into the 1B coaches box.  Put up the stop sign and don't answer him or address anything he says until he gets back to the box.  "Coach, you need to stop now and return the the coaches box."  If he runs the stop sign, he's done.  No hesitation.

If you did this and he had immediately returned, now gain a little ground (slowly, not aggressively) towards the incoming head coach to create some separation from the AC.  You are much more likely to keep it 1:1 with the HC if the AC is farther away.  At this point, the AC continued to argue and you restricted him.  In my view, there is nothing left to discuss with the HC.  The AC and now the HC are both restricted.  Conversation over.  If HC wants to press, then he should be made aware that prolonging the argument will result in his ejection from the game.

As you have already stated, since you restricted the AC for "leaving his position to argue a call," then the HC restriction should have been automatic.  Live and learn.

Overall, I think you handled it well.  These things can blow up quickly, and it appears that you kept your wits about you.