Refusing to Get "Help"

[Nafxos]

After paying my dues for a few seasons doing mostly sub varsity high school games, I've finally got a decent number of varsity assignments on my schedule this year. I'm excited to be "moving up" and trying not to look too much like a newbie out there as I get higher quality games.

Today I had the bases for a pretty good varsity matchup. I had never had either school before (even at the sub varsity level) so I didn't know either coach and they didn't know me. In the bottom of the first, we had a potential inning-ending DP ball but I called the BR safe when F3 came off the bag to field the throw from F6. The defensive HC asked if I could check with my partner on the pulled foot. I told him that it was my call, I had a great angle, and that I clearly saw daylight between F3's foot and the bag, so there was no reason to get help. He persisted a bit and got a little whiny ("Why can't you just ask him? He's right there,") but I held my ground and didn't go for "help". Part of the reason was because I knew I had seen the entire play clearly, and part was because I didn't want to set the tone that  I would be conferring with my partner on every close call. I didn't hear a peep from either coach the rest of the game.

After the game I asked my partner what he thought about getting help there, and he said I should have gone for help just to appease the coach. I was surprised, and we eventually agreed to disagree, but I'm curious what others would have done. Go through the motions to keep the coach happy, or just say "it's my call, coach. I don't need help on this one"?

[refump10]

• Good job.  You saw the entire play and made your call.  The only time you need to go for help is when there is a possibility that your partner might have a better look at some element of the play.  Don't go to your partner just to appease the coach. 

[MooseLoop]

Coach was testing the new ump.  You passed the test.

[aiber]

Good job. I have made that mistake before.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ricka56]

I had the exact situation (except I was in A and saw foot/base daylight) a few weeks ago. Coach was under the mistaken belief that I had to go get help if he asked. I also had a partner that said that I should have come to him to appease the coach (he and F2 both saw the pulled foot). 

While I agree with your decision to keep the call (no partner conference), you might want to check with your assn. prez and ask him what he thinks. I think that it can make things difficult for umpires in future games if coaches get to expect to have  partner conference granted at will, but some assn. are in the coach appeasing business. You ought to know that before you have another situation like the OP. Then you can decide if you want to say FU to the coach or your association.

[Nafxos]

9 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

I had the exact situation (except I was in A and saw foot/base daylight) a few weeks ago. Coach was under the mistaken belief that I had to go get help if he asked. I also had a partner that said that I should have come to him to appease the coach (he and F2 both saw the pulled foot). 

While I agree with your decision to keep the call (no partner conference), you might want to check with your assn. prez and ask him what he thinks. I think that it can make things difficult for umpires in future games if coaches get to expect to have  partner conference granted at will, but some assn. are in the coach appeasing business. You ought to know that before you have another situation like the OP. Then you can decide if you want to say FU to the coach or your association.

I'm going to bring it up at our association meeting tomorrow night.  My partner (40+ years experience) was pretty adamant after the game that I should have checked with him. I politely disagreed. I wasn't rude to the coach or unapproachable. I simply told him that it was my call, I had the angle, and I clearly saw the foot off the bag, so there was no need to get any more "help".  I'll let you know what kind of feedback I get at the meeting.

[ricka56]

Think about how you (a junior assn member) are going to inquire and respond to their "policy". I would push back if they said that you should have gone to your partner...but I am a senior assn member...it might not serve a junior assn member as well.  

"So, even though I saw the pulled foot and nothing my partner could say would convince me otherwise, you still want me to go ask my partner to appease the coach ?" 

[MidAmUmp]

Keep it short and sweet. The less you say the better. "I had a great look and I'm 100% sure that he pulled his foot. If there was any doubt in my mind I would get help, but I'm 100% sure on this one."

Appeasing a coach is not a reason to get help.

 

Good job standing your ground. 

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Stand your ground on the SAFE call.  If you saw the foot off the bag, it WAS off the bag.

Now, if you had initially called him OUT, you ought to be much more willing to get partner's help, as it's entirely possible his foot might have come off without you seeing it.

[LittleBlue]

We talked about this exact thing at our association meeting last night. The general consensus was that if you are 100% sure about your call, stick with it and don't get in the habit of going to your partner on ever call, because it will give the coaches the belief that you will got to your partner on every close call. They see umps on TV getting together and they think we will too, but if you're sure about the call you made, why do you need your partner to make the call? Stick to what you call!

[Nafxos]

42 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Stand your ground on the SAFE call.  If you saw the foot off the bag, it WAS off the bag.

Now, if you had initially called him OUT, you ought to be much more willing to get partner's help, as it's entirely possible his foot might have come off without you seeing it.

Agree.  I had that happen in an earlier game.  My angle wasn't ideal and I got straightlined.  I called BR out and immediately knew I might have kicked it when the entire offensive team (they had the 1B dugout) seemed to scream "he was off the bag!" simultaneously.  The HC asked me to check and I agreed.  PU confirmed that F3 was off the bag and I changed the call to safe.

That incident got me thinking more about going directly to the PU to ask if he pulled his foot BEFORE making my call.  I've always been of the belief that it's better to make a call and fix it later if necessary.  And I especially don't want to go to the PU if I'm not certain he was watching / in position.  But in this case, we could have saved some heartache if I had gone to my partner before calling the BR out. 

Ultimately we got it right.  But the defensive HC decided to start dropping f-bombs and didn't see the rest of the game.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

I's advise AGAINST going for help before making your call.  I USED to do that (that's how I was trained MAAAAANY years ago).  But it can really get you in trouble.  What if your partner wasn't watching that play? 

If the ball beat the runner, and you BELIEVE f3 was on the bag, CALL THE OUT.  It's an EASY fix if it's challenged and your partner saw f3 off the bag.

I MUCH prefer to have that conference with my partner privately, not shouting across the field...especially while play is on-going.

[Welpe]

2 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

I's advise AGAINST going for help before making your call.  I USED to do that (that's how I was trained MAAAAANY years ago).  But it can really get you in trouble.  What if your partner wasn't watching that play? 

If the ball beat the runner, and you BELIEVE f3 was on the bag, CALL THE OUT.  It's an EASY fix if it's challenged and your partner saw f3 off the bag.

I MUCH prefer to have that conference with my partner privately, not shouting across the field...especially while play is on-going.

Just what I was going to say. I've done it both ways and while it looks good to get help right away, it makes a big assumption your partner is in position to see it and can offer help. I've also had going to my partner first backfire when I start to ask and point down toward the plate only to see him half way up the third base line. That was ugly and it cured me of asking before hand.

I'm also in the camp of not asking just to appease a coach. I had a steal at second while working the bases that I banged the runner out on after the fielder got him on his foot that was flailing high in the air. Coach wanted me to get help on that and I flat out refused the same as you did. If you're 100% on your call, stick with it. 

[udbrky]

I learned a lesson this weekend in making the coach go to his box when discussing. I thought my partner was asking about RLI on a bunt, but it was whether it hit batter. I had batter's back and ruled no. Later, he said that he saw it, but could not determine whether batter was in the box or out, which I could see. Had we discussed it privately, he might've told me that and we'd talk it through. 

[mrumpiresir]

During an American Legion game, I was in C when the batter hit a ground ball to F6.  The throw to F3 was high and the BR touched first while F3 was still in the air.  I called the runner safe and the defensive coach came out and asked me to get help.  I refused and told him I had seen the play clearly and stood by my call. His response:  "So you blew that call all by yourself?"   I told him to go back to the dugout which he did.

He did eject himself later in the game when he told me "That's three you missed."  Turned out he was a daddy coach and was an ass all game long.

[udbrky]

44 minutes ago, mrumpiresir said:

During an American Legion game, I was in C when the batter hit a ground ball to F6.  The throw to F3 was high and the BR touched first while F3 was still in the air.  I called the runner safe and the defensive coach came out and asked me to get help.  I refused and told him I had seen the play clearly and stood by my call. His response:  "So you blew that call all by yourself?"   I told him to go back to the dugout which he did.

He did eject himself later in the game when he told me "That's three you missed."  Turned out he was a daddy coach and was an ass all game long.

Haha, I like this line by him!

[maineump]

Remember IF you do get help. then the PU is only offering what he saw - not 'changing the call', that is still your decision depending on what you are given. Perception is a big thing to coaches, if they see (what they perceive) you aren't in a good position, they will ask. Make sure that you are on the B side of the mound making the call at 1B. This includes throws from 1b or SS. It takes a little practice, but it can be done with a few steps.

And as above, if you are 100%, in the right place, and a good angle - you don't NEED to go.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, mrumpiresir said:

He did eject himself later in the game

He ejected himself the first time.  You just failed to announce it.

[mrumpiresir]

23 hours ago, noumpere said:

He ejected himself the first time.  You just failed to announce it.

I let his comment go once he returned to the dugout.  Didn't feel an ejection was necessary at that time. But he was on thin ice.

But there is more to the story that indicates he was a jerk.  Later in the game I ejected the the first baseman when he said " That's three you missed."  When the coach came out to find out why F3 was ejected and I told the coach what he said, his response was " I agree with him."  That is when the coach was ejected.  As the sub was coming out to replace the ejected F3, he stopped to kick dirt on the plate.  My partner ejected him as well.  All in all this team was undisciplined and began acting like a group of jerks when they fell behind. 

I later learned F3 was the coach's son.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 0:56 PM, mrumpiresir said:

But there is more to the story that indicates he was a jerk.  Later in the game I ejected the the first baseman when he said " That's three you missed."  When the coach came out to find out why F3 was ejected and I told the coach what he said, his response was " I agree with him."  That is when the coach was ejected.  As the sub was coming out to replace the ejected F3, he stopped to kick dirt on the plate.  My partner ejected him as well.  All in all this team was undisciplined and began acting like a group of jerks when they fell behind. 

I later learned F3 was the coach's son.

The apple rarely falls too far from the tree.

[Man_In_Black]

My $0.02:

The OP was correct in owning his call. He saw it 100% and didn't need help. Coaches need to understand that each member of an umpiring crew has his own responsibilities. There is no "umpiring by committee", where every close call that someone might question automatically carries with it the right to a second opinion or to go "call shopping".

Now, if the call had been "out" and the BU was straightlined on a possible pulled foot, then that's a different animal (as has been discussed above). But if you are 100% sure of your call, then stick by it. Last time I checked "appeasing coaches" was not part of our job description.

 

[RichMSN]

I've asked for help only a few times in 30 years on a pulled foot / swipe tag at first base -- and in all three situations, I was the one who initiated the conversation with the plate umpire -- I knew I was screened (in two of the plays) or lazy (on the other one) and knew I likely kicked the crap out of the call immediately.

I'm not in the business of being out of position and/or not seeing plays.  I've "retired" from college baseball -- it seems weird to say I'm retired at 46, but I grew weary of 4-game D3 weekends (2 9-inning games Saturday and Sunday, 2-man crews) and I never felt any more pressure to get help there as I do in HS games.  I just don't do it unless I feel I need it.

One of the last times I *gave* help was 2 years ago when a fielder held the bag and my partner called him off -- he asked and I told him what I saw and he reversed himself.  One of the best umpires I've ever worked with didn't get a great look and made an educated guess on a call and he came to me cause he wanted my opinion.  He got it.  I ended up ejecting the first base coach after warning him twice to go back to his box while we dealt with the skipper.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

The key to NOT missing that pulled foot is "ANGLE trumps DISTANCE".  No matter where you are when the play begins, or where the throw is coming from, there is ALMOST always a good angle...our job is to find that spot and get there.

[lawump]

Had a high school playoff game Tuesday night.  I'm on the plate, three-man crew. Attempted 6-4-3 double-play.  U1 calls the B/R safe at first on a pulled-foot.  Head coach comes out to argue.  Most of the argument is not over the actual call, but of U1's refusal to get help. 

On the way back to the (third-base) dugout, the head coach stopped to talk to me.  I told him that I was not going to discuss the call.  He just say, "I just want to know why he won't get help.  Isn't that a rule?  I've never head of that."  I said, "its not a rule, and with us having three umpires, he was standing 15-feet away from your first baseman in the perfect position to be able to look down at your first baseman's feet.  Why would he come to me for help when I was 95-feet away?"  (I was standing first base line extended, as an R3 came home and scored on the play).

The head coach just walked away mumbling to himself.  After the game I told my partner that he did a great job refusing to get help and that I would have kicked his a$$ if he did.

[RichMSN]

1 hour ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

The key to NOT missing that pulled foot is "ANGLE trumps DISTANCE".  No matter where you are when the play begins, or where the throw is coming from, there is ALMOST always a good angle...our job is to find that spot and get there.

And sometimes you get screwed cause the players do something weird and there's no time to react.

Saw an F4 Steve Sax one over to first base with the bases empty, F3 made a great play diving towards the plate and swiping the tag on the BR.  The BU had no chance -- not enough time to get a read step or even a good lean.  BU called time right after the play, got the PU, said a few words, and turned and called the BR out.  Nobody said a word, other than, "that's good work all around."