Deflected Out of Play

[zoops]

Had a batted ball to the LF corner that was slightly deflected by F7's glove before rolling under a gap in the fence in foul territory.  Coach argued that once the ball is touched, it's no longer a batted ball (he wanted R1 to score on the play), which I know isn't true, at least not for base awards.  However, it got me thinking into how to judge this.  My understanding has been that if the fielder puts a new force on the ball, then you can get 2 from the time of the touch, if not, 2 from the pitch.  A few possible scenarios came to mind as I thought about it:

a)  Jose Canseco play - fly ball deflects off fielder and goes over the fence without touching the ground.  Ball would not have gone out otherwise.

b)  Ball deep to OF and bounces high, outfielder stabs at the ball but ricochets off his glove over the fence.  

c)  Outfielder gloves a bounding ball in the LF corner but fumbles it on the transfer and the ball goes out of play.  

Just curious what your line of thinking and/or rules references are in these cases.  

[conbo61]

From NFHS (Fed) Case Book , (a) appears to be your situation.

8.3.3 SITUATION J:

B1 singles to right field, (a) the ball rolls to a stop and F9, attempting to pick it up, kicks the ball into dead-ball territory or (b) the bouncing ball strikes F9 on the leg and deflects into dead-ball territory.

RULING: In (a), F9 applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, which is the same as if he had thrown it there. The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw). In (b), the force on the batted ball caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

[maven]

(a) is a HR. Check the definition of IN FLIGHT.

For (b) and (c) we need to judge whether the ball would have gone out of play had the fielder not touched it. If so, the award is TOP; if not, it's technically a "throw," and the award is TOT.

Every live ball in play is either a pitched ball, a batted ball, or a thrown ball. It's a pitch until it's batted (except foul tip), comes to rest, is possessed by F2, or becomes dead by rule. A batted ball is such until it is redirected or possessed by a fielder or becomes dead by rule. Everything else is a thrown ball until playing action ends or the ball becomes dead by rule.

[Jimurray]

48 minutes ago, maven said:

(a) is a HR. Check the definition of IN FLIGHT.

For (b) and (c) we need to judge whether the ball would have gone out of play had the fielder not touched it. If so, the award is TOP; if not, it's technically a "throw," and the award is TOT.

Every live ball in play is either a pitched ball, a batted ball, or a thrown ball. It's a pitch until it's batted (except foul tip), comes to rest, is possessed by F2, or becomes dead by rule. A batted ball is such until it is redirected or possessed by a fielder or becomes dead by rule. Everything else is a thrown ball until playing action ends or the ball becomes dead by rule.

"Comes to rest" is only a FED criteria. Not addressed in OBR or NCAA and results in some different rulings on wild pitches I believe.

[noumpere]

12 hours ago, maven said:

For (b) and (c) we need to judge whether the ball would have gone out of play had the fielder not touched it. If so, the award is TOP; if not, it's technically a "throw," and the award is TOT.

I think it's more of "had the momentum to go out of play."

 

In the OP, if the ball wasn't touched, it presumably would have hit the fence and not the gap and would not have gone out of play.  Despite that, the award is still TOP.

 

Similarly for zoops' play B -- presumably the fielder didn't swat at the ball so hard that he all of a sudden made the ball travel faster -- he just changed the direction of the ball.  So, award TOP.

 

Zoops' play C is pretty clearly TOT, I think.

 

 

[maven]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I think it's more of "had the momentum to go out of play."

Yeah, I was struggling to express the idea of redirecting vs adding impetus or some such. 'Impetus' from the fielder is the term in 8.3.3J that warrants a TOT award.

OTOH, the standard in 8.3.3K is whether the ball would have gone out of play anyway, so go figure.

[Senor Azul]

8.3.3 SITUATION K:  F1 throws a pitch that strikes F2 on a shinguard and rolls away. The ball (a) has stopped moving and F2, attempting to pick it up, kicks it into dead-ball territory, or (b) is rolling and deflects off F2’s glove into dead-ball territory, or (c) F2 intentionally kicks the ball into dead-ball territory. RULING:  In (a), F2 applied the force that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the kick (throw) results in all runners being awarded two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw). The pitch is considered to be over. In (b), the force on the pitch caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the award to all runners is one base from the base occupied at the time of the pitch. In (c), if the umpire judges the pitch would have gone into dead-ball territory without the kick, one base is awarded from the time of the pitch. If the kick is judged to have caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, two bases are awarded from the time of the throw/kick.

 

This case book play applies the same reasoning as 8.3.3 SITUATION J does. The standard of whether the ball would have gone out of play anyway is applied to the special case where a fielder intentionally kicks/throws the ball out of play.

[zoops]

Good to hear I wasn't out of my mind and that the coach was indeed just making himself look silly when he was yelling that once the fielder touches it, it's no longer a batted ball and when I told him it doesn't matter if he just deflected it and he screams at the top of his lungs "yes it does!"  NCAA game by the way...

[maven]

26 minutes ago, zoops said:

Good to hear I wasn't out of my mind....

Few here are qualified to comment on your mental health. Please consult a suitable professional.

[ricka56]

17 minutes ago, maven said:

Few here are qualified to comment on your mental health. Please consult a suitable professional. 

or any bartender.