Train Wreck #2

[FleasOf1000Camels]

High School game, I'm on the plate.  2 outs, R1 on 2nd.  B2 is a lefty with some pop, so F3 is VERY deep and hugging the line.

B2 hits pop fly to right side, looks as if it will come down 20 feet in front of 1st, right near line.  I can still see it like in super-slo-mo.  F3 and BR running straight towards each other, and F1 sprinting to the same spot.  Both F1 and F3 are calling for the ball, and BR angles to HIS right just as F3 angles to HIS left...putting them right back on collision course.  Ball hits F1's glove over fair ground as F3 and BR collide shoulder-to-shoulder, and they both go down.  BR was ducking and turning his head away from contact, I don't believe F3 ever saw the runner coming at him, as he was focused on the ball.  F1's momentum carries him in to the pile of legs, arms and bodies...he goes down and ball pops out.  R2, who was running on contact, crosses plate after BR/F3 collision, but before ball hits ground. BR scrambled the rest of the way to 1st on his hands and knees.  At this point I killed the play and waved coaches out to tend to their boys while I huddled with my partner.

I know there is a lot of HTBT on this one, but in my opinion F1 had the best chance to make the play, so I considered him the protected infielder.  That makes F3 guilty of obstruction, and since the ball hit F1's glove over fair ground BR gets 1st base.  My partner and I were on the same page with everything up to that point, but were divided about where to place R1.  I thought his run should stand, he favored sending him back to 3rd.

DC tried to make a case for interference, as F1 (the protected fielder) only dropped the ball after contact with BR...but I dismissed that by reminding him that the only reason BR was on the ground to interfere was that he'd been obstructed by F3.

 

[noumpere]

In OBR / NCAA this is "Type B" OBS -- leave the ball live.

 

In FED, all OBS is "delayed dead."

 

So, score the runner.

[calablue]

In regards to the DC trying to make a case for INT., since you said it was a pile of arms, legs and bodies, how could anyone be sure that F1 wasn't interfered with by HIS OWN teammate?

[maven]

You killed it at the end of playing action, right? Sounds like OBS with no award: the BR achieved the base he would have been awarded, so there's no further penalty.

I don't see any conceivable rationale for putting R2 (not R1 — he started on 2B) back on 3B. He scored when the ball was live.

If you killed it before R2 scored, then you killed it prematurely, and you should advance runners to the bases they would have reached had you waited until the end of playing action. Either way, R2 scores.

[udbrky]

Sounds similar to this play:

 

 

[ricka56]

Since they are making a play on BR on the fly ball, why isn't this type 1 (A) obstruction ? 

[Replacematt]

18 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

Since they are making a play on BR on the fly ball, why isn't this type 1 (A) obstruction ? 

It's not in the outfield.

[ricka56]

15 minutes ago, Matt said:

It's not in the outfield.

The logic of that escapes me...obstruction on a rundown is type 1(A). 

Type 1(A) is when obstruction occurs on the runner being played on or BR has not yet reached 1B. 
Ball is dead but you could score R2 if you thought he would have gotten HP. OBR 6.01h 

[ElkOil]

Remember that in FED, OBS is a delayed dead ball. Also, with injuries, you only call time at the end of playing action unless further play would cause additional harm. So let the play play out and call time at the end of the action. I'd place BR on 1B and score the run.

[Replacematt]

8 hours ago, ricka56 said:

The logic of that escapes me...obstruction on a rundown is type 1(A). 

Type 1(A) is when obstruction occurs on the runner being played on or BR has not yet reached 1B. 
Ball is dead but you could score R2 if you thought he would have gotten HP. OBR 6.01h 

MLBUM 6.22 case 2 (paraphrased:)

On obstruction on BR during a fly ball to the infield:

1. If it is caught, the obstruction is ignored.

2. If it is dropped before BR reaches 1B, it is type A.

3. If it is dropped after BR reaches 1B, it is type B.

Thus, if I'm reading the OP correctly, this does end up being type A.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

MLBUM 6.22 case 2 (paraphrased:)

On obstruction on BR during a fly ball to the infield:

1. If it is caught, the obstruction is ignored.

2. If it is dropped before BR reaches 1B, it is type A.

3. If it is dropped after BR reaches 1B, it is type B.

Thus, if I'm reading the OP correctly, this does end up being type A.

I stand corrected.  It's type A.  Still score R2 (or whoever it was) anyway.

[Richvee]

Interesting... The OP got me thinking...Let's take the OP, but this time, BR sees F3 coming at him, veers to avoid him, but in the process, runs into F1 who just caught the pop up, but the collision jars the ball loose. Does F3's OBS absolve the BR of his responsibility to give the fielder an unhindered attempt at fielding the ball?   How would this be ruled?

[PonyUmpire]

Interesting... The OP got me thinking...Let's take the OP, but this time, BR sees F3 coming at him, veers to avoid him, but in the process, runs into F1 who just caught the pop up, but the collision jars the ball loose. Does F3's OBS absolve the BR of his responsibility to give the fielder an unhindered attempt at fielding the ball?   How would this be ruled?

Do over?

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[Kevin_K]

6 hours ago, PonyUmpire said:

Do over?

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Only in LL World Series

[maven]

7 hours ago, Richvee said:

Interesting... The OP got me thinking...Let's take the OP, but this time, BR sees F3 coming at him, veers to avoid him, but in the process, runs into F1 who just caught the pop up, but the collision jars the ball loose. Does F3's OBS absolve the BR of his responsibility to give the fielder an unhindered attempt at fielding the ball?   How would this be ruled?

That's the MLB play with a dropped ball.

OBS entails an awarded base in this instance, which is the right to run the bases legally without liability to be put out by the defense. There's still liability to be CALLED out for illegal action, such as INT.

That said, I don't see that this runner's act would constitute hindrance. If F1 catches that ball, it will NOT result in the BR being out, as we're protecting him to 1B. If there are other runners, they're surely not advancing on a pop-up. So dropping it doesn't hinder the defense.

Kill it and award BR 1B.

[noumpere]

41 minutes ago, maven said:

 If F1 catches that ball, it will NOT result in the BR being out, as we're protecting him to 1B.

???

 

I think if F1 catches the ball, the BR is out.

[maven]

26 minutes ago, noumpere said:

???

 

I think if F1 catches the ball, the BR is out.

Hm. I'm trying to recreate my thought process that led to that statement....

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, maven said:

That's the MLB play with a dropped ball.

OBS entails an awarded base in this instance, which is the right to run the bases legally without liability to be put out by the defense. There's still liability to be CALLED out for illegal action, such as INT.

That said, I don't see that this runner's act would constitute hindrance. If F1 catches that ball, it will NOT result in the BR being out, as we're protecting him to 1B. If there are other runners, they're surely not advancing on a pop-up. So dropping it doesn't hinder the defense.

Kill it and award BR 1B.

That answers part of my question.

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

???

 

I think if F1 catches the ball, the BR is out.

So the other part of my question remains... ...Is a fielder's momentum after catching a pop up/line drive protected the same as his ability to field the ball?   Ex. F1 catches the popup, subsequently runs into BR and drops the ball. INT?

 

[noumpere]

 

16 minutes ago, Richvee said:

That answers part of my question.

So the other part of my question remains... ...Is a fielder's momentum after catching a pop up/line drive protected the same as his ability to field the ball?   Ex. F1 catches the popup, subsequently runs into BR and drops the ball. INT?

 

I would say so.  The one exception I can think of right now is that if F3 OBS BR and in doing so physically pushes / directs / knocks BR into (protected) F1 I might get a different call.  In the play where BR chooses to go inside and makes contact, that's on BR.  He could have stopped, gone to the right, made gentle (or at least not flagrant) contact with F3 to really show the OBS, etc.

[ElkOil]

14 hours ago, maven said:

Hm. I'm trying to recreate my thought process that led to that statement....

How's it going?