I admit...this is a third world play

[lawump]

I am confident in my evaluation of this actual play, but I have gotten enough arguments from other umpires that I have elected to post here.  This play did not happen to me, but one of my association's umpires.

Bases loaded, 2 outs.  Fly ball to F9.  R3 and R2 put their heads down and start running (again, there are two outs).  R1 (obviously thinking there is only one out) remains standing about 10-feet away from first base (apparently the first base coach fell asleep, too.)  The fly ball goes off F9's glove and lands on the ground, uncaught, at his feet.  F9 picks up the ball and fires to F6 (who is standing at second base) in an attempt to record the force out against R1.  As the ball is in the air (after being thrown by F9), the B/R passes R1 (the B/R put his head down and just kept sprinting along.  However, R1 was still asleep about 10-feet from first base...I DID warn you that this was a third world play.)  The base umpire immediately calls the B/R out for passing R1.  F6 then gloves F9's throw and steps on second base.  At the time of the passing, R3 had touched home plate (R2 was about 15-feet from home plate.)

The debate is whether or not R3's run scores.  This play resulted in ejection(s).  I am confident in how I would adjudge this play...but I have received enough blowback that I thought I would throw it out here with the idea that maybe I am overlooking something.  I have, after all, been giving my explanation of how I would rule on this play to others while at my work office without the benefit of having any rulebooks in front of me.

[ALStripes17]

I am confident in my evaluation of this actual play, but I have gotten enough arguments from other umpires that I have elected to post here.  This play did not happen to me, but one of my association's umpires.

Bases loaded, 2 outs.  Fly ball to F9.  R3 and R2 put their heads down and start running (again, there are two outs).  R1 (obviously thinking there is only one out) remains standing about 10-feet away from first base (apparently the first base coach fell asleep, too.)  The fly ball goes off F9's glove and lands on the ground, uncaught, at his feet.  F9 picks up the ball and fires to F6 (who is standing at second base) in an attempt to record the force out against R1.  As the ball is in the air (after being thrown by F9), the B/R passes R1 (the B/R put his head down and just kept sprinting along.  However, R1 was still asleep about 10-feet from first base...I DID warn you that this was a third world play.)  The base umpire immediately calls the B/R out for passing R1.  F6 then gloves F9's throw and steps on second base.  At the time of the passing, R3 had touched home plate (R2 was about 15-feet from home plate.)

The debate is whether or not R3's run scores.  This play resulted in ejection(s).  I am confident in how I would adjudge this play...but I have received enough blowback that I thought I would throw it out here with the idea that maybe I am overlooking something.  I have, after all, been giving my explanation of how I would rule on this play to others while at my work office without the benefit of having any rulebooks in front of me.

Off the top of my head with no research:

In the spirit of fair play, I would disallow any runs scored; however, on a legal basis, I would allow R3 to score due to the BR passing as a 'time play'.

But then this gets into a whole scenario where R1 can just chill and if the ball is dropped, then the BR can purposefully pass him to create the 'time play'. But I don't know how that would play into a coachable scenario seeing as this whole crisis would have been averted (and the offense continues hitting) if everyone was doing what they were 'supposed to be doing'.

I would count the run and rule the BR out as a 'time play'. That's easier to explain to coaches within the rules I can currently think of.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Replacematt]

R3 scores. This is a time play.

There's nothing coachable about this. There are two out. To have R1 intentionally linger is putting the offense at a disadvantage if the ball is dropped.

[scrounge]

Don't really see what's so 3rd world, really....seems straightforward. Runner scored before the passing created the 3rd out. B/R already achieved first so no problem there. No force, so a time play. What's there to argue about?

[lawump]

To the first three responses: Exactly!  I have said timing play over and over.  But, as ALStrips17 responded, many have argued that the offense could "do this on purpose" to gain an advantage.  I have said, "bull crap...all the offense has to do is catch the ball."

I have said to those who have argued with me that, "no run can score on a play in which the third out is recorded if that third out is a (1) force out or (2) against the batter/runner before he reaches first base."  I have said since the last out was not a force out nor against the batter-runner before he reached first base...it is a timing play.

Seemed straight forward to me.  I don't know why the argument. 

I think its a third world play because I don't think R1 would have stayed were he was for that long (not with two outs, anyways).

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, lawump said:

To the first three responses: Exactly!  I have said timing play over and over.  But, as ALStrips17 responded, many have argued that the offense could "do this on purpose" to gain an advantage.  I have said, "bull crap...all the offense has to do is catch the ball."

I have said to those who have argued with me that, "no run can score on a play in which the third out is recorded if that third out is a (1) force out or (2) against the batter/runner before he reaches first base."  I have said since the last out was not a force out nor against the batter-runner before he reached first base...it is a timing play.

Seemed straight forward to me.  I don't know why the argument. 

I think its a third world play because I don't think R1 would have stayed were he was for that long (not with two outs, anyways).

I have a time play but could the defense get an advantageous fourth out with an appeal of the force that existed in live action? I say yes. Did they appeal?

[Replacematt]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

I have a time play but could the defense get an advantageous fourth out with an appeal of the force that existed in live action? I say yes. Did they appeal?

How? There was no baserunning infraction. Once R1 was passed, the force was removed.

[scrounge]

3 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I have a time play but could the defense get an advantageous fourth out with an appeal of the force that existed in live action? I say yes. Did they appeal?

What force?

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Matt said:

How? There was no baserunning infraction. Once R1 was passed, the force was removed.

You're right. No infraction. The force was removed. No appeal possible. Wendelstedt has a play like that. It is actually a time play for the score and a time play for the ball's arrival at 2B.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, lawump said:

  But, as ALStrips17 responded, many have argued that the offense could "do this on purpose" to gain an advantage. 

What's illegal about that?

[Senor Azul]

You did not specify which rule set but your play does match up with NFHS case book play 8.4.2 Situation L (2015 edition):

With two outs, R2 and R1, B5 singles. B5 passes R1 between first and second (a) just before R2 touches the plate or (b) just after R2 touches the plate.  RULING:  In (a), the run does not count, while in (b), it does count. A runner is called out at the moment he passes a preceding runner, but the ball remains live. Acts such as attempts of a runner to profit by running too far from the baseline to avoid a tag, or outside the three-foot lane while advancing to first, or running the bases in reverse, or otherwise making a travesty of the game may not be appealed. The umpire calls the runner out without waiting for the defensive player to call attention to the act.

[lawump]

5 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

What's illegal about that?

Nothing.

[Richvee]

8 hours ago, Matt said:

R3 scores. This is a time play.

There's nothing coachable about this. There are two out. To have R1 intentionally linger is putting the offense at a disadvantage if the ball is dropped.

Exactly. Why would anyone "design" a play where their team makes the 3rd out a timing play when running like you should with 2 outs scores the run and keeps your team at bat?

[noumpere]

Perhaps those who are arguing for a force out are confusing (or extending to)  lawump's play with the similar play where R3 scores, BR passes R1 and the ball is then caught.  In that case, no run scores.