Intersting Rare Check Swing Appeal

[Cato the Younger]

First I am confident this may not happen again. An umpire I work with who coaches his kids very good select team asked me about this play that happened last October in an "elite" tourney. I typically avoid what I call "don't worry about it..... because if it happened....... it probably won't happen again" plays but I found this one very interesting. I am not going to post in the OP what the umpires on the field ruled because I am interested in your thoughts.

Two outs and two strikes on the batter, the runner on first base is thrown out attempting to steal second base. The coach (who also umpires) is aware that the opponent's best hitter is batting appeals the checked swing to the base umpire, trying to get the batter is declared out on strikes. Thus, the batter becomes the third out for both scoring purposes and establishing the next batter for the next inning.

Thoughts in FED, NCAA and Pro baseball rules? Would this be a legit 4th out appeal?

Note: I am confident this coach knew how to have his team properly appeal. So assume it was appealed properly under each code.

[Mudisfun]

I would think the check swing appeal would actually be the 3rd out assuming the BU agreed it is strike 3. Kind of like a timing play... The out occurs when the tag goes down, not when the umpire make the mechanic. So in this case the 3rd strike precedes the out at 2nd.

All in all... Smart thinking by the coach.

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[JoeC]

In a 2-man, wouldn't the BU be more worried about the runner than the check swing?

[BCBrad]

I bought the Wendelstedt manuals over the holidays and there is a section (pg 16-17) and 7 reference plays on this subject in the rules and interpretation manual. It says that technically the strike out happened before the steal. Batter is out 3. It is stated clearly in the manual that it is not a fourth out situation. 

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, JoeC said:

In a 2-man, wouldn't the BU be more worried about the runner than the check swing?

He should be "worried" about both.  It's part of his job, and the play can happen on any steal (not just the two-strikes, two-outs OP).

[maineump]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

He should be "worried" about both.  It's part of his job, and the play can happen on any steal (not just the two-strikes, two-outs OP).

Very true, the base guy is watching the pitcher, the ball and should NEVER take his eye off the ball - especially during the steal. He would follow the ball into second on this play. He should easily see the check swing. He should follow the ball, as if the plate guy called a ball and make his call. Then when asked, he could give his opinion. I agree, the K3 happens first, so nothing at second on the appeal.

My question from the OP is - how did the coach make the appeal to the base coach on a check swing? He has to ask the plate guy to check.

[basejester]

What if it's the team's worst hitter and the offense wants to appeal for the swing? 

[noumpere]

12 minutes ago, basejester said:

What if it's the team's worst hitter and the offense wants to appeal for the swing? 

The offense can appeal all it wants.  It won't (or shouldn't) be granted.

[maven]

11 hours ago, Cato the Younger said:

Thoughts in FED, NCAA and Pro baseball rules? Would this be a legit 4th out appeal?

No problem, any code. Garden variety check swing appeal; it seems complicated only because the runner also attempted to steal. The situation could be made more interesting had F2 not legally caught the pitch.

This is not a 4th out appeal situation, because (1) 4th out appeals are only retouch and missed base appeals, not check swing appeals, and (2) the "advantage" referred to in the "advantageous 4th out" is only taking a run off the board.

[basejester]

14 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The offense can appeal all it wants.  It won't (or shouldn't) be granted.

Interesting.  Why not?  (Not arguing - just probing) I looked for support in OBR and can't find anything explicit.  I could see this actually coming up in an uncaught third strike situation.

8.02/9.02 . . .
The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask
his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls
the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The
manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper
call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field
umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire
and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a
ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information
about a half swing.
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball
and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to
a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the
base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.
Appeals on a half swing must be made before the next pitch, or
any play or attempted play. If the half swing occurs during a
play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before
all infielders of the defensive team leave fair territory.

[Senor Azul]

From the BRD (2014 edition, pp. 65-66):

OBR Official Interpretation 79-77 WENDELSTEDT  An appeal of a half swing may be made only on a call of “Ball” and ONLY BY THE DEFENSE.

Apparently, only OBR has this interpretation—not Fed or NCAA. Another difference is that in Fed the plate umpire is not required by rule to honor the appeal. Their applicable rule, 10-1-4, uses the word “may” when talking about checked swings.

[Cato the Younger]

5 hours ago, basejester said:

What if it's the team's worst hitter and the offense wants to appeal for the swing? 

This was a very witty and amusing post.

 "Hey ump I know the guy was out at second but could you ask your partner for help if our guy actually swung because he's our worst hitter in the nine slot and I'd like to start the inning with our resident Tony Gwynn Who is our leadoff hitter."

 

[Cato the Younger]

6 hours ago, maineump said:

My question from the OP is - how did the coach make the appeal to the base coach on a check swing? He has to ask the plate guy to check.

 

Here is a little more information on how the play went down.  This kid is not supposed to have struck out in an ungodly number of times at bat. As soon as he checked the swing and the umpire called "ball" the whole dugout was asking the plate umpire go for help because they wanted the pitcher to get the K. The runner got thrown out at second base and the coach who as I indicated is an umpire yelled at the battery, and the infield to stay put as they were all starting to trot off the field. He came on the field approach the plate umpire and asked if he could appeal the check swing and if he did would the batter be called out?

 As a coach, this guy is a complete class act the type of guy who you like to work for. Tends to get umpires to work hard for him and bring their "A" game but he's always very professional. He actually has all his kids come out and shake the umpires hands before the game. Some of my colleagues don't like this, but I think it's a very classy gesture.

 The coach didn't know what the proper interpretation was either, but he thought it might be worth asking to get the Tourney "Ted Williams" not coming back to the plate the next inning. The umpire who was not familiar with the coach was a little befuddled by the request. Also, as was alluded to earlier in the thread, the base umpire feigned ignorance that he really didn't get a good look at the swing as he was getting in position to rule at second base. So the check swing and call of ball actually stood on the field.

 I was more interested in the appeal component rather then the actual ruling on the field. Usually, any type of  "4th out appeal" is usually on a missed base or failure to take up on a fly ball with a runner scoring. This was very interesting to me as it applied to a batting order situation and did not affect a run-scoring. I thought everyone might find it to be a very interesting play.

[grayhawk]

2 hours ago, Cato the Younger said:

Also, as was alluded to earlier in the thread, the base umpire feigned ignorance that he really didn't get a good look at the swing as he was getting in position to rule at second base.

As the base umpire, if you aren't automatically saying in your mind, "yes he did" or "no he didn't" on every check swing, then you aren't doing your job.  The steal attempt is irrelevant.  If this was a newer umpire (or even if he wasn't), then this was a good learning opportunity.

[Cato the Younger]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

As the base umpire, if you aren't automatically saying in your mind, "yes he did" or "no he didn't" on every check swing, then you aren't doing your job.  The steal attempt is irrelevant.  If this was a newer umpire (or even if he wasn't), then this was a good learning opportunity.

 

In a perfect world you are correct, but to be honest with you I have gotten so focused on a steal I really didn't have much to offer the plate umpire when he came to me several times in my career. This is most common when after the dust settles at second and they convinced the plate umpire to come down after a delay.

I don't consider this as much of a rookie mistake is much as remaining focused on multiple things happening. Even the best of us go to sleep from time to time on the bases.

The steal attempt is not irrelevant. It is the primary responsibility of the base umpire. The check swing is not.

What if the plate umpire never comes to you? 

You can get away with saying that you were focused on the steal and did not get a good look at the check swing situation and retain credibility,  But if you say I was so focused on the check swing I really didn't get a look at the tag play at second your credibility for the rest of that game is pretty much shot.

[grayhawk]

2 minutes ago, Cato the Younger said:

In a perfect world you are correct, but to be honest with you I have gotten so focused on a steal I really didn't have much to offer the plate umpire when he came to me several times in my career. This is most common when after the dust settles at second and they convinced the plate umpire to come down after a delay.

I don't consider this as much of a rookie mistake is much as remaining focused on multiple things happening. Even the best of us go to sleep from time to time on the bases.

The steal attempt is not irrelevant. It is the primary responsibility of the base umpire. The check swing is not.

What if the plate umpire never comes to you? 

You can get away with saying that you were focused on the steal and did not get a good look at the check swing situation and retain credibility,  But if you say I was so focused on the check swing I really didn't get a look at the tag play at second your credibility for the rest of that game is pretty much shot.

These things don't happen simultaneously.  The check swing happens well before the play at second base.  If you are moving at all before F2 releases the throw, you are jumping the gun.  I understand and appreciate that any of us can lose focus - we aren't machines.  I am saying that "I was focused on the steal" is nothing but an excuse for losing focus, rather than a legitimate reason for missing something when two of your responsibilities actually occur at the same time (such as a base touch when you are judging safe/out elsewhere).

[Cato the Younger]

38 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

These things don't happen simultaneously.  The check swing happens well before the play at second base.  

 

In a two-umpire system many umpires are focused on reading the catchers body language to prepare to "open their gate" and take care of the primary responsibility........ the steal...........( including me ) ....... at the expense of watching the batter. The catcher is already starting to throw before the batters motions have even completed in many these situations. 

So no....... "well before well before the play at second base" ...... does not fit the multiple factors the base umpire must keep track of. If you stay to focused on the check swing, a close steal play will explode on you, and you will be guessing regardless of how good you are. 

[grayhawk]

In a two-umpire system many umpires are focused on reading the catchers body language to prepare to "open their gate" and take care of the primary responsibility........ the steal...........( including me ) ....... at the expense of watching the batter. The catcher is already starting to throw before the batters motions have even completed in many these situations. 

So no....... "well before well before the play at second base" ...... does not fit the multiple factors the base umpire must keep track of. If you stay to focused on the check swing, a close steal play will explode on you, and you will be guessing regardless of how good you are. 

When I read your posts, I often wonder if you umpire a different game than the rest of us. I think I'll call it "Catoball."

[Cato the Younger]

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

When I read your posts, I often wonder if you umpire a different game than the rest of us. I think I'll call it "Catoball."

Who is the rest of us? Lol  Is this board the Borg from Star Trek?

Your posting makes me think you are pretty young. That's a good thing. But as good as it is being young is it does have some disadvantages.

I like your Tagline "Almost as good as I think I am" ..........Well, mine is ..... "I wish I was as good as I thought I was when I was younger."

I'm a way better umpire now then when I suffered from "young man's disease" even though I'm a little bit slower and can't work nine full seven-inning baseball games like I did regularly on weekends Friday night to Sunday when I was in my 20's. But back in the day, I thought I missed very little on the field. 

Now I'm smart enough to know what I don't always see and, more importantly, why.

You are fooling yourself if you think you are that dialed into everything happening on a baseball diamond. Your post that indicates the check swing happens "well before well before the play at second base" is a perfect example of this.  The actual tag may happen after, but the umpire has to start processing his primary responsibility a potential play at second as the catchers receiving the pitch. Can it be done? Yes.  But is this one situation that many umpires loose focus on because their attention is diverted to the play at second base????  Absolutely. 

[ALStripes17]

Who is the rest of us? Lol  Is this board the Borg from Star Trek?

Your posting makes me think you are pretty young. That's a good thing. But as good as it is being young is it does have some disadvantages.

I like your Tagline "Almost as good as I think I am" ..........Well, mine is ..... "I wish I was as good as I thought I was when I was younger."

I'm a way better umpire now then when I suffered from "young man's disease" even though I'm a little bit slower and can't work nine full seven-inning baseball games like I did regularly on weekends Friday night to Sunday when I was in my 20's. But back in the day, I thought I missed very little on the field. 

Now I'm smart enough to know what I don't always see and, more importantly, why.

You are fooling yourself if you think you are that dialed into everything happening on a baseball diamond. Your post that indicates the check swing happens "well before well before the play at second base" is a perfect example of this.  The actual tag may happen after, but the umpire has to start processing his primary responsibility a potential play at second as the catchers receiving the pitch. Can it be done? Yes.  But is this one situation that many umpires loose focus on because their attention is diverted to the play at second base????  Absolutely. 

I'm not buying it. The check swing happens way before the play at second. You arent looking at anything else at this point. The F2, the batter, and the ball are all in the same spot when the check swing occurs. Make your mental note of 'yes he did' or 'no he didnt' as you prepare for a two-step open up and crossover to your angle at 2B.

The batter isn't finishing a check swinging while the ball travels over the pitcher's mound. His barrel will have completed its forward travel by the time the F2 gets it out of his glove.

There is a grander issue at hand if you can't do those two things in the time given.

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[noumpere]

IT's not hard to do, but we don't get much opportunity to practice it and if we're not ready we can be surprised.

 

Add me to the "this is a learning opportunity" post grayhawk made up above.

[Cato the Younger]

3 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

I'm not buying it. The check swing happens way before the play at second. You arent looking at anything else at this point. The F2, the batter, and the ball are all in the same spot when the check swing occurs. Make your mental note of 'yes he did' or 'no he didnt' as you prepare for a two-step open up and crossover to your angle at 2B.

The batter isn't finishing a check swinging while the ball travels over the pitcher's mound. His barrel will have completed its forward travel by the time the F2 gets it out of his glove.

There is a grander issue at hand if you can't do those two things in the time given.

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I'm not saying it's difficult. Clausewitz’s dictum applies here (paraphrased)......... in war as umpiring everything is simple, nothing is easy.

You guys are fooling yourself if you think this is a rare situation that the base umpire loses focus because his attention turns to the play at second base and the appeal is asked for after the play occurs. I think that's the advantage of a thread like this is that it brings awareness to the play which will help umpires focus. But this is going to happen numerous times by numerous umpires in this up-and-coming season.

[Cato the Younger]

On February 8, 2016 at 10:17 AM, maven said:

No problem, any code. Garden variety check swing appeal; it seems complicated only because the runner also attempted to steal. The situation could be made more interesting had F2 not legally caught the pitch.

This is not a 4th out appeal situation, because (1) 4th out appeals are only retouch and missed base appeals, not check swing appeals, and (2) the "advantage" referred to in the "advantageous 4th out" is only taking a run off the board.

 I'd like to revisit this as well. I think it's important to define when a fourth out can occur. I don't hundred percent agree with the post above because a runner leaving early also can clearly lead to a fourth out appeal.

Until my buddy brought up display I never even thought about the possibilities of fourth out appeal on a check swing situation like this. That's why find the play so fascinating.

 I will admit I don't mind the mechanics derail because I think there's a lot of value to having awareness of the check swing possibility as the base umpire. But what makes the play interesting to me is the application of the fourth out appeal. Clearly we have pro baseball  interpretation support which would also potentially flow to NCAA without an official ruling. I'm wondering if there's any rule support in Federation?

[maven]

50 minutes ago, Cato the Younger said:

 I'd like to revisit this as well. I think it's important to define when a fourth out can occur. I don't hundred percent agree with the post above because a runner leaving early also can clearly lead to a fourth out appeal.

You're not disagreeing. You do know what a retouch appeal is, right?

Your situation is not even possibly a fourth out situation. The out is made when the batter strikes out, not when the check swing appeal is granted. That's why it's the third, not the fourth, out.

The timing of the out is one of the major differences between a check swing appeal and baserunning appeals (retouch and missed base), which allow for time plays.

[Cato the Younger]

57 minutes ago, maven said:

You're not disagreeing. You do know what a retouch appeal is, right?

Your situation is not even possibly a fourth out situation. The out is made when the batter strikes out, not when the check swing appeal is granted. That's why it's the third, not the fourth, out.

The timing of the out is one of the major differences between a check swing appeal and baserunning appeals (retouch and missed base), which allow for time plays.

I now understand the OBR Official Interpretation 79-77 WENDELSTEDT giving some rule support in pro baseball.

This is an interesting way to look at the situation because clearly the tag-out  at second is occurring before the appeal. I think our original thought process was when I discussed this play with my buddy who was the appealing coach and a extraordinarily talented umpire was ........Does the tag end the inning and any appeal asking for a fourth out ........ (and that's what it is "a fourth out") would not be allowed. It's your position that it would because the third out is not the tag at second if properly appealed but the batter striking out.

Interesting. 

If you're not going to call it a "fourth out appeal" what would you call it?