Do you have FPSR here?

[grayhawk]

Would you call FPSR on this play?  If so and you were BU, would you still have eyes on this or would you have already turned with the throw?

[Mike Walsh]

http://m.mlb.com/video/v474380883

Would you call FPSR on this play?  If so and you were BU, would you still have eyes on this or would you have already turned with the throw?

Assuming it was a high school game, of course. It's close, but I don't think so. The runner slid directly into the base, even though part of his body was to the side of the base. The bases are only 15 inches wide. Since he slid directly into the base, I wouldn't penalize him for the contact. He wasn't beyond the base, but just off to the side a little. It was hard to tell though, because the replay was so quick.

Contact happened after the release, so the BU should be moving to set up for the play at 1st base. If it's going to be called, I'd expect the PU to get it in his clean-up role.

Mike

[Haid D' Salaami]

In NCAA i would call FPSR the runner did not slide directly into the base. His body must go into the base, not just his torso.

[noumpere]

I agree with hiad.  The legs are out toward the fielder.  Easy call.

[zoops]

Easy FPSR call - kind of inconsequential with the DP being turned.  

[Haid D' Salaami]

I agree with hiad.  The legs are out toward the fielder.  Easy call.

I will respectfully disagree. it needs to be called regardless of the back end of the double play.. Umpires are scared of calling this and hope the DP is completed. 

[Richvee]

I think you can get this as the BU. If you have the proper footwork, you've taken that step towards the 45 foot mark while you're watching the transfer. If you've waited and not turned your head towards first prior to the release from F4, I think you see R1 sliding away from the bag. Only real good mechanics will allow BU to get this. 

[ElkOil]

I wouldn't call it at HS.  Even if R1 made contact, I don't think it's malicious.  Since both runners were out, what would the penalty be?

[Richvee]

I wouldn't call it at HS.  Even if R1 made contact, I don't think it's malicious.  Since both runners were out, what would the penalty be?

FPSR by no means has to be malicious. Not sliding in a direct line to the bag and making contact is enough. There doesn't need to be an EJ. Technically, if you call a FPSR here, it kills the play, there is really no play at 1st. You shouldn't be calling safe or out at 1st if you called the INT. The call is Time!

[grayhawk]

I wouldn't call it at HS.  Even if R1 made contact, I don't think it's malicious.  Since both runners were out, what would the penalty be?

Malicious has nothing at all to do with this. The slide was illegal in a force play situation, so it should be called which is an immediate dead ball. The play at first never happened. Even though both runners are still out, the difference is if there was an R2 or R3 on this play, they would have to return to their bases.

[Richvee]

Every time this topic comes up, I watch this video  again. It's a difficult rule to master.  I'm certainly not there yet. 

[umpstu]

Assuming it was a high school game, of course. It's close, but I don't think so. The runner slid directly into the base, even though part of his body was to the side of the base. The bases are only 15 inches wide. Since he slid directly into the base, I wouldn't penalize him for the contact. He wasn't beyond the base, but just off to the side a little. It was hard to tell though, because the replay was so quick.

Contact happened after the release, so the BU should be moving to set up for the play at 1st base. If it's going to be called, I'd expect the PU to get it in his clean-up role.

Mike

It's not a fpsr because he didn't interfere which is what the rule is.  But, that is no way straight into the bag. Straight into the bag is straight into the bag, not with the legs flying off to the side.  If he had interfered I'm nailing that.

 

[umpstu]

In NCAA i would call FPSR the runner did not slide directly into the base. His body must go into the base, not just his torso.

Did he interfere?

[umpstu]

Malicious has nothing at all to do with this. The slide was illegal in a force play situation, so it should be called which is an immediate dead ball. The play at first never happened. Even though both runners are still out, the difference is if there was an

R2

or

R3

on this play, they would have to return to their bases.

Do you have the runner interfering on this in the least?  Does he alter the play?  Any news from SCCUA?

[noumpere]

 

It's not a fpsr because he didn't interfere which is what the rule is.  But, that is no way straight into the bag. Straight into the bag is straight into the bag, not with the legs flying off to the side.  If he had interfered I'm nailing that.

 

I agree the runner did not interfere, but that's NOT what the rule is, no matter how many times in a row (or otherwise) you post the same thing. 

 

On a force play, just sliding at the fielder is enough to get both outs.  True in both HS and college.  I don't have the rules here handy to quote them all, but in 2-Illegal Slide (2-32 maybe?), note that a pop up requires contact; a roll block requires contact; etc. but the "on a force play does not slide directly at the base" does NOT require contact or INT.

 

Also, in 8-4-2b(?) there are two parts -- slide illegally and cause contact or INT; OR on a force play does not slide directly at the base.  The contact / INT applies only to the first 7 of 8 (or whatever number) of clauses in 2-Illegal Slide and not to the last one (the FPSR one).

I wouldn't call it at HS.  Even if R1 made contact, I don't think it's malicious.  Since both runners were out, what would the penalty be?

I forget, do you work HS? (serious question).  If so, you need to start calling it.  If not, you need to be ready to call it when you do (o when you work youth tournaments that are FED-based).

Edited September 15, 2015 by noumpere

[noumpere]

I will respectfully disagree. it needs to be called regardless of the back end of the double play.. Umpires are scared of calling this and hope the DP is completed. 

I think you quoted the wrong post.  You are agreeing with me.

[JaxRolo]

FPSR all day in FED

[maven]

Also, in 8-4-2b(?) there are two parts -- slide illegally and cause contact or INT; OR on a force play does not slide directly at the base.  The contact / INT applies only to the first 7 of 8 (or whatever number) of clauses in 2-Illegal Slide and not to the last one (the FPSR one).

That's it: 8-4-2b has vexed syntax, but the applicable clause is the last one (just paraphrased): "... or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases;..."

I'm also concerned about the suggestion in this thread that the MLB clip shows a runner sliding on a direct line between the bases. It does not: his body is perpendicular to the required direct line. The fact that the vector of his motion is along the direct line is not sufficient for compliance with the rule: his body must be lined up, head first or feet first, along that line between the bases.

Frankly, FED should restructure this rule. They need one clause dealing with INT and illegal slides (contact, hindrance, altering the actions, etc.). A distinct clause should address FPSR, which requires none of those (though they are also sufficient for FPSR violations).

[noumpere]

Frankly, FED should restructure this rule. They need one clause dealing with INT and illegal slides (contact, hindrance, altering the actions, etc.). A distinct clause should address FPSR, which requires none of those (though they are also sufficient for FPSR violations).

I agree.  I think there's another rule that also deals with this subject that causes confusion -- 8-4-2d or f, iirc.

[grayhawk]

Do you have the runner interfering on this in the least?  Does he alter the play?  Any news from SCCUA?

I think the others have covered why this is still interference, so nothing for me to add there.  I haven't heard anything back from SCCUA yet.  No idea what their time table is going to be.

[ElkOil]

 

I agree the runner did not interfere, but that's NOT what the rule is, no matter how many times in a row (or otherwise) you post the same thing. 

 

On a force play, just sliding at the fielder is enough to get both outs.  True in both HS and college.  I don't have the rules here handy to quote them all, but in 2-Illegal Slide (2-32 maybe?), note that a pop up requires contact; a roll block requires contact; etc. but the "on a force play does not slide directly at the base" does NOT require contact or INT.

 

Also, in 8-4-2b(?) there are two parts -- slide illegally and cause contact or INT; OR on a force play does not slide directly at the base.  The contact / INT applies only to the first 7 of 8 (or whatever number) of clauses in 2-Illegal Slide and not to the last one (the FPSR one).

I forget, do you work HS? (serious question).  If so, you need to start calling it.  If not, you need to be ready to call it when you do (o when you work youth tournaments that are FED-based).

I work mostly HS and Select ball under FED rules.  So far, I've only made one call on the FPSR.

[noumpere]

I work mostly HS and Select ball under FED rules.  So far, I've only made one call on the FPSR.

Then let me ask -- you indicated that you would NOT call this a violation.  Why not?

[ElkOil]

That call would be made by PU, and that angle isn't the best for seeing that kind of slide.  So from that vantage point without the benefit of replay, and without seeing contact, I wouldn't call it.  I don't believe I'd have enough information.  Now saying all this, I certainly could be wrong if it happened in a game - this is a result of my supposition coupled with my imagination.

Plus, if my understanding is correct, the only reason for calling it would be to return R2 and/or R3 if they were present since R1 and BR were out.  With nobody else on, I don't see what the point would be for calling it anyway.  I'm sure I must be missing something here, but I don't know what it is.

[MooseLoop]

I would not have called this a FPSR violation before reading this thread, but I will from now on.  I did not appreciate that the whole body (legs trunk and arms) must slide directly into the base.  

The baseball fan in me does not like this rule.  Trying to break up the double play, and the fielder turning a double play in spite of the runner's attempt, are things of beauty.

So thanks for this post, and thanks RichVee for the link to the useful video.

[grayhawk]

That call would be made by PU, and that angle isn't the best for seeing that kind of slide.  So from that vantage point without the benefit of replay, and without seeing contact, I wouldn't call it.  I don't believe I'd have enough information.  Now saying all this, I certainly could be wrong if it happened in a game - this is a result of my supposition coupled with my imagination.

Plus, if my understanding is correct, the only reason for calling it would be to return R2 and/or R3 if they were present since R1 and BR were out.  With nobody else on, I don't see what the point would be for calling it anyway.  I'm sure I must be missing something here, but I don't know what it is.

You're supposed to call it when it happens, which is before you know the outcome of the play at first base.  You are calling time which renders the play at first base moot.