Too Quick?

[StrikeToWin]

U-trip tournament, HS division.  R1 and R3 , 1 out.  BR hits a weak ground ball up the 1B line and F3 comes in to field it.  Turns to make a throw to someone covering 1B and sees there is no one there.  He dives to apply a tag to BR.  I'm in the working are behind the mound and what I see is F3 with an empty glove and the ball in his throwing hand.  I'm honestly not sure if he tagged the runner or not but I did not see one and even if he did, he only got him with the glove so I signal safe.  F3 immediately jumps up and turns and glares at me while shouting quite loudly "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!"  I then made sure all other play was done and turned to the upset F3 and told him he was done.  Not one coach ever came out to talk to me or ask me what I saw they just got mad and started shifting people around as F3 made his way to the dugout.  I did hear the HC tell someone to call the tournament director.  Now, I know this is HTBT but I'm curious if it sounds like I was to quick with an EJ?  

[aiber]

In my opinion, yes. That does not justify an ejection. Not even close.....you should've just returned to C position.

[blue23ll]

I hear that about 43 times a game...

[johnnyg08]

Probably don't EJ in that situation.  

[StrikeToWin]

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?  

[scrounge]

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?  

 

Perhaps a firm "that's enough", with a stop sign hand signal...

[T-Rav]

I think you were a bit too quick on this one and I would have put up the stop sign and told him that's enough, if he blows it then he is done. However if you eject early, you'll likely will have less ejections and fewer issues in your games.

 

If at all possible, try to issue a warning as it seems almost everyone wants a warning in before an ejection, atleast in my area.

[ElkOil]

That doesn't rise to the level of an EJ.  Players, coaches and fans get miffed all the time.  They vent at us.  It's part of the game and our tolerance level has to be equal to the task.  Two days ago, I had to call an illegal slide on one play and help everyone understand why two players standing on one base at the same time wasn't a double play in another.  People got mad.  Players tried to explain what they thought happened.  Coaches were steamed.  Fans hollered at me saying I didn't know the rules.  I got lots of eye rolls and "Ughs!" from everyone and even a "You're kidding me" from one coach and an emphatic "that's terrible!" from another.  Everyone stayed in the game.

 

Just keep a cool head, explain your ruling if necessary, have some understanding for the players' impassioned behavior and play on.  That's baseball.

 

I like what others have said here before.  Eject for the Three P's:  Personal, Profane, Prolonged.  Let everything else roll off.

[ElkOil]

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?  

 

You don't have to do anything.  You won't be on the receiving end of a death stare for very long if you turn your back and walk away.

[UmpJeff]

Calmly say, "No, I am not.  He's safe. That's enough."

 

Turn away and walk back to C.

[StrikeToWin]

FWIW, my partner and another umpire, plus other coaches that were watching the game, said my actions were completely justified and they would have done the same thing.  I'm just thinking maybe I pulled the trigger a bit quick.  I need to go back to the timing thing that is harped on here.  Don't be too quick to make a call.  I feel like if I would've stopped and thought for a couple of seconds I may have handled it differently.  Also and I know this made a difference that I didn't communicate in my OP, but there had been a catch/no catch situation a couple of plays earlier at 2B that the defensive team was chirping about.  I will say that after I ej'd that I didn't have any other grumbling from that team.

[MPLSMatt]

 

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?  

 

You don't have to do anything.  You won't be on the receiving end of a death stare for very long if you turn your back and walk away.

 

 

I disagree with this.  If you get screamed at from across the diamond by a High School kid you have to knowledge or address it or you are going to lose control in a hurry.  Same words somewhat quietly and sans death stair, OK, ignore.  But with the info in this post I think you have to address it somehow, probably with "that's enough."   Of course, it all depends on tone - but if you feel that this was an intent to show you up, you've got to do something - not eject - but something. 

[aiber]

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?

 

You don't have to do anything.  You won't be on the receiving end of a death stare for very long if you turn your back and walk away.

 

I disagree with this.  If you get screamed at from across the diamond by a High School kid you have to knowledge or address it or you are going to lose control in a hurry.  Same words somewhat quietly and sans death stair, OK, ignore.  But with the info in this post I think you have to address it somehow, probably with "that's enough."   Of course, it all depends on tone - but if you feel that this was an intent to show you up, you've got to do something - not eject - but something.

How did OP know there even was a "death stare"? If he turns and jogs back to C position (assuming runners on first and second) then no death stare and no problems.

[HokieUmp]

FWIW, my partner and another umpire, plus other coaches that were watching the game, said my actions were completely justified and they would have done the same thing.  I'm just thinking maybe I pulled the trigger a bit quick.  I need to go back to the timing thing that is harped on here.  Don't be too quick to make a call.  I feel like if I would've stopped and thought for a couple of seconds I may have handled it differently.  Also and I know this made a difference that I didn't communicate in my OP, but there had been a catch/no catch situation a couple of plays earlier at 2B that the defensive team was chirping about.  I will say that after I ej'd that I didn't have any other grumbling from that team.

 

I'm going to agree with the general consensus that the EJ was too soon, but since there'd been general b----ing and complaining, a firm, equally-loud "THAT'S ENOUGH" was the minimum needed.

 

On the other hand, metaphorically putting a head on a stake for the others to see DOES tend to quiet the rest of the inmates.  So you had that going for you.

[StrikeToWin]

 

 

 

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?

 

You don't have to do anything.  You won't be on the receiving end of a death stare for very long if you turn your back and walk away.  

I disagree with this.  If you get screamed at from across the diamond by a High School kid you have to knowledge or address it or you are going to lose control in a hurry.  Same words somewhat quietly and sans death stair, OK, ignore.  But with the info in this post I think you have to address it somehow, probably with "that's enough."   Of course, it all depends on tone - but if you feel that this was an intent to show you up, you've got to do something - not eject - but something.

How did OP know there even was a "death stare"? If he turns and jogs back to C position (assuming runners on first and second) then no death stare and no problems.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, would you have ignored the loudly shouted question immediately after you had made your call?  Again, this was not a quiet or a conversational questioning of my judgement, everyone in the stands heard him.  Had his tone not been as hostile as it was, I probably would've been able to ignore it, but with the volume, I thought it deserved my attention.  Plus, at that point the ball was still live and he was holding the ball.  Very hard to ignore.  I'm really not arguing or justifying myself (I know it can come across like that) but want to learn how to handle similar situations in the future as I am a fairly inexperienced umpire.  

[ElkOil]

 

 

 

 

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?

 

You don't have to do anything.  You won't be on the receiving end of a death stare for very long if you turn your back and walk away.  

I disagree with this.  If you get screamed at from across the diamond by a High School kid you have to knowledge or address it or you are going to lose control in a hurry.  Same words somewhat quietly and sans death stair, OK, ignore.  But with the info in this post I think you have to address it somehow, probably with "that's enough."   Of course, it all depends on tone - but if you feel that this was an intent to show you up, you've got to do something - not eject - but something.

How did OP know there even was a "death stare"? If he turns and jogs back to C position (assuming runners on first and second) then no death stare and no problems.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, would you have ignored the loudly shouted question immediately after you had made your call?  Again, this was not a quiet or a conversational questioning of my judgement, everyone in the stands heard him.  Had his tone not been as hostile as it was, I probably would've been able to ignore it, but with the volume, I thought it deserved my attention.  Plus, at that point the ball was still live and he was holding the ball.  Very hard to ignore.  I'm really not arguing or justifying myself (I know it can come across like that) but want to learn how to handle similar situations in the future as I am a fairly inexperienced umpire.  

 

 

I don't want to do armchair second-guessing with something this specific because one, it's not fair to you -- you made the call you thought was appropriate at the time.  And two, not experiencing it in person gives me a very limited perspective.  I've never EJ'd anybody, so I don't yet know what would trigger it in me.

[aiber]

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?

 

You don't have to do anything.  You won't be on the receiving end of a death stare for very long if you turn your back and walk away.  

I disagree with this.  If you get screamed at from across the diamond by a High School kid you have to knowledge or address it or you are going to lose control in a hurry.  Same words somewhat quietly and sans death stair, OK, ignore.  But with the info in this post I think you have to address it somehow, probably with "that's enough."   Of course, it all depends on tone - but if you feel that this was an intent to show you up, you've got to do something - not eject - but something.

How did OP know there even was a "death stare"? If he turns and jogs back to C position (assuming runners on first and second) then no death stare and no problems.

 

Just out of curiosity, would you have ignored the loudly shouted question immediately after you had made your call?  Again, this was not a quiet or a conversational questioning of my judgement, everyone in the stands heard him.  Had his tone not been as hostile as it was, I probably would've been able to ignore it, but with the volume, I thought it deserved my attention.  Plus, at that point the ball was still live and he was holding the ball.  Very hard to ignore.  I'm really not arguing or justifying myself (I know it can come across like that) but want to learn how to handle similar situations in the future as I am a fairly inexperienced umpire.

I wasn't there and of course I have had time to think it through. Yes, I would've just jogged to my position. If he says anything else, then I turn to him and say, "that's enough" or eject him, depending on what he says or does.

[JHSump]

@StrikeToWin I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Your EJ may not have been too quick. It is, as you said, a HTBT. And, as you said, other umpires on site agreed with you. They were there.

 

And I disagree with some of the responses you have received. IMHO, the best responses you received were from @HokieUmp and @MPLSMatt. This player needed, at minimum, a very strong "That's enough!" And, that's at minimum.

 

You do not have to converse with players about any call you make. I would certainly not answer any questions shouted by a player. Suggestions that you answer such a player, calmly or not, other than with "That's enough!" are incorrect, in my opinion. Then you are inviting other players and coaches to shout questions at you. Don't play along with that game.

 

If players or coaches shout "ARE YOU KIDDING?" at you 43 times per game, you need to put a head on a pike. There is no need for you (or anyone else) to take that much abuse. (Ok, I know 43 times per game was an exaggeration. It was an exaggeration, right @blue23ll "? Maybe it was a joke.)

 

The heads you put on pikes should be players or coaches. Ignore the fans. They don't exist, unless they enter the field or engage in actions that really threaten to interfere with or overly disturb the game, then talk to a coach or the site director.

 

I disagree with those that suggest you should have ignored the shout, then turned and jogged or walked to C or anywhere else. If you did not eject F3, and the ball is still live and in the hand of F3, you should not turn your back on F3. What if R1 wandered off 1B and F3 tagged him after you turned your back?

 

And, so, you are left facing a player --- a kid --- with the ball in his hand loudly shouting at you. You could not ignore it. Depending on the volume and ferocity of that shout you should either shut him down immediately with a strong "That's enough" or simply dump him. Do not let it bother you that the coaches got mad or talked about calling the TD. Coaches get mad all the time. That's perfectly fine. The coaches need to control their players. The TD should back you up.

[blue23ll]

Are you KIDDING???????????

[aiber]

@StrikeToWin I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Your EJ may not have been too quick. It is, as you said, a HTBT. And, as you said, other umpires on site agreed with you. They were there.

 

And I disagree with some of the responses you have received. IMHO, the best responses you received were from @HokieUmp and @MPLSMatt. This player needed, at minimum, a very strong "That's enough!" And, that's at minimum.

 

You do not have to converse with players about any call you make. I would certainly not answer any questions shouted by a player. Suggestions that you answer such a player, calmly or not, other than with "That's enough!" are incorrect, in my opinion. Then you are inviting other players and coaches to shout questions at you. Don't play along with that game.

 

If players or coaches shout "ARE YOU KIDDING?" at you 43 times per game, you need to put a head on a pike. There is no need for you (or anyone else) to take that much abuse. (Ok, I know 43 times per game was an exaggeration. It was an exaggeration, right @blue23ll "? Maybe it was a joke.)

 

The heads you put on pikes should be players or coaches. Ignore the fans. They don't exist, unless they enter the field or engage in actions that really threaten to interfere with or overly disturb the game, then talk to a coach or the site director.

 

I disagree with those that suggest you should have ignored the shout, then turned and jogged or walked to C or anywhere else. If you did not eject F3, and the ball is still live and in the hand of F3, you should not turn your back on F3. What if R1 wandered off 1B and F3 tagged him after you turned your back?

 

And, so, you are left facing a player --- a kid --- with the ball in his hand loudly shouting at you. You could not ignore it. Depending on the volume and ferocity of that shout you should either shut him down immediately with a strong "That's enough" or simply dump him. Do not let it bother you that the coaches got mad or talked about calling the TD. Coaches get mad all the time. That's perfectly fine. The coaches need to control their players. The TD should back you up.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??

[JHSump]

Boom. You are gone. Both of you.

[bluejerred]

Read "Verbal Judo".  It will change your life.  If you felt that ejecting the player was the best option to maintain control of the game, then you did what you had to do.  If you have any "less-than-lethal" ammunition that would have brought the situation under control, then use that.  It sounds like you had control of yourself during the ejection which is the most important part of all,  so good job.  As the immortal one taught, the only ejection you will regret is the one you missed.  And I have missed a few.............................................................and I regret them.

[ZebraStripes]

 

 

 

 

I thought after the fact that I may have been a little quick, but at the time, the tone, the action of F3 (death stare) and the game situation all screamed at me that he needed to be done or this might get sideways.  I think I could have handled it with a few words to F3 but as he was yelling at me from across the diamond loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear, I felt like I had to take immediate action.  How could I have handled this differently?

 

You don't have to do anything.  You won't be on the receiving end of a death stare for very long if you turn your back and walk away.  

I disagree with this.  If you get screamed at from across the diamond by a High School kid you have to knowledge or address it or you are going to lose control in a hurry.  Same words somewhat quietly and sans death stair, OK, ignore.  But with the info in this post I think you have to address it somehow, probably with "that's enough."   Of course, it all depends on tone - but if you feel that this was an intent to show you up, you've got to do something - not eject - but something.

How did OP know there even was a "death stare"? If he turns and jogs back to C position (assuming runners on first and second) then no death stare and no problems.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, would you have ignored the loudly shouted question immediately after you had made your call?  Again, this was not a quiet or a conversational questioning of my judgement, everyone in the stands heard him.  Had his tone not been as hostile as it was, I probably would've been able to ignore it, but with the volume, I thought it deserved my attention.  Plus, at that point the ball was still live and he was holding the ball.  Very hard to ignore.  I'm really not arguing or justifying myself (I know it can come across like that) but want to learn how to handle similar situations in the future as I am a fairly inexperienced umpire.  

 

Was it personal?  No.  Was it prolonged?  No.  Was it profane?  No.  I'm not tossing the kid at this point.  Call time and have a chat with DC to have him/her nip it in the bud.

[ZebraStripes]

Boom. You are gone. Both of you.

Red A$$

[StrikeToWin]

I do appreciate all of the feedback.  I am working on timing as it is and now I am needing to work on timing with pulling the trigger.  I did hear from the umpires that had the team on the second day of the tournament and they told me that there wasn't a peep from that team the whole day.  I guess that's one good thing that came from it.