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Chongo

Stealing second before pitcher delivers

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This happened, of course, during a Little League game:

 

Runner on first and the pitcher assumes his pitching position. Runner goes to second base and get there safe. The pitcher, oblivious of whats going on, didn't even move. Runner even takes a couple of steps on second. Then the pitcher delivers and its a popup fly to first base. The defending team claims that runner on first must be out for not returning to first base.

 

The umpire agreed and its called out.

 

Is this correct or the runner is already entitled to second base.

 

 

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If he stole it before the pitcher started his pitching motion then yes he stays there.


Oh and Welcome!

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It was LL.  Didn't the runner "leave early?"  (serious question -- I don't do LL)

 

In non LL (and in the LL levels where lead offs are allowed), it's all based on the Time of Pitch -- when the pitcher's motion commits him to pitch).  In the OP, the runner can stay at second -- and he could stay there if the ball was foul, etc.

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My understanding of LL is that once the pitcher is in position on the rubber the runner is glued to the base until the ball reaches the batter.

He should have been put back.

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My understanding of LL is that once the pitcher is in position on the rubber the runner is glued to the base until the ball reaches the batter.

He should have been put back.

 

Depends on the leve.  LL has bases with open bases, which would seem to be context of the post.  For those levels, OBR applies and the magic question, as others have stated, is whether he acquired 2d by the time of pitch (as in started the pitch).  In hteOP, whether the U misappled the rule or believed that the pitcher started his pitching motion before the runner got to second, we just don't know.

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It's a crazy ruling, but LL rules that even if a runner has reached the next base before Time of Pitch, the runner still must be returned to the base. 

 

 

http://www.littleleague.org/learn/newsletters/Fairball_Newsletters/2010/fbmay10/7_13_Base_Running_Majors_and_Below.htm

The batter, who has received a base on balls, goes to first base and STOPS on the base. The pitcher is in possession of the ball on the pitcher’s plate and the catcher is ready to receive the pitch. The batter/ runner now leaves the base in an attempt to advance. This is not legal and constitutes leaving early. Drop the flag. If the pitcher makes no attempt to make a play on the runner, at the end of the advance, the runner, and all other runners on base, will be returned to their original bases because of the violation. Pick up the flag. If the batter/runner returns to first base on his/her own accord, without an attempted play, the penalty will still be in effect for the next pitch. Leave the flag. If, during an attempt to advance, the pitcher begins a motion to deliver a pitch, the violation will be in effect for that pitch and penalized after the pitch or play.

I am not sure what I would do about the out here. I guess it comes down to the last legally acquired base. Defense appealed at the last legally acquired base. I guess I have an out.

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I've had this happen to me. As long as the pitcher has not made an attempt to start his wind up. I have stood up (like a balk) and said he now has second. This lets everyone know Time of pitch he has second. Hope that helps. The level of LL that I have done this with there is no leave early. It is OBR rules.

Edited by ERW27

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I've had this happen to me. As long as the pitcher has not made an attempt to start his wind up. I have stood up (like a balk) and said he now has second. This lets everyone know Time of pitch he has second. Hope that helps. The level of LL that I have done this with there is no leave early. It is OBR rules.

So what do you do when your announcement startles the pitcher and he commits a balk?

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Open bases in LL Intermediate (50-70), Junior, Senior, and Big league divisions.  

 

You'll probably also find a lot of local league's which allow some stealing in Majors, and possibly Minor, division, during regular season play, to start teaching the kids how to do it.  

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I've had this happen to me. As long as the pitcher has not made an attempt to start his wind up. I have stood up (like a balk) and said he now has second. This lets everyone know Time of pitch he has second. Hope that helps. The level of LL that I have done this with there is no leave early. It is OBR rules.

Sorry but not the right thing to do!!!

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Here's what I think.

 

BR is out.

R1 is not out on appeal because his TOP base is second.

Time

Return the runner to first base.

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It's a crazy ruling, but LL rules that even if a runner has reached the next base before Time of Pitch, the runner still must be returned to the base. 

 

 

http://www.littleleague.org/learn/newsletters/Fairball_Newsletters/2010/fbmay10/7_13_Base_Running_Majors_and_Below.htm

The batter, who has received a base on balls, goes to first base and STOPS on the base. The pitcher is in possession of the ball on the pitcher’s plate and the catcher is ready to receive the pitch. The batter/ runner now leaves the base in an attempt to advance. This is not legal and constitutes leaving early. Drop the flag. If the pitcher makes no attempt to make a play on the runner, at the end of the advance, the runner, and all other runners on base, will be returned to their original bases because of the violation. Pick up the flag. If the batter/runner returns to first base on his/her own accord, without an attempted play, the penalty will still be in effect for the next pitch. Leave the flag. If, during an attempt to advance, the pitcher begins a motion to deliver a pitch, the violation will be in effect for that pitch and penalized after the pitch or play.

I am not sure what I would do about the out here. I guess it comes down to the last legally acquired base. Defense appealed at the last legally acquired base. I guess I have an out.

 

 

Leaving early is NOT an out - no matter how far he went. Just return him to the base.

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Here's what I think.

 

BR is out.

R1 is not out on appeal because his TOP base is second.

Time

Return the runner to first base.

 

It was intermediate.  No leaving early issue. No return to first.

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It's a crazy ruling, but LL rules that even if a runner has reached the next base before Time of Pitch, the runner still must be returned to the base. 

 

 

http://www.littleleague.org/learn/newsletters/Fairball_Newsletters/2010/fbmay10/7_13_Base_Running_Majors_and_Below.htm

The batter, who has received a base on balls, goes to first base and STOPS on the base. The pitcher is in possession of the ball on the pitcher’s plate and the catcher is ready to receive the pitch. The batter/ runner now leaves the base in an attempt to advance. This is not legal and constitutes leaving early. Drop the flag. If the pitcher makes no attempt to make a play on the runner, at the end of the advance, the runner, and all other runners on base, will be returned to their original bases because of the violation. Pick up the flag. If the batter/runner returns to first base on his/her own accord, without an attempted play, the penalty will still be in effect for the next pitch. Leave the flag. If, during an attempt to advance, the pitcher begins a motion to deliver a pitch, the violation will be in effect for that pitch and penalized after the pitch or play.

I am not sure what I would do about the out here. I guess it comes down to the last legally acquired base. Defense appealed at the last legally acquired base. I guess I have an out.

 

 

Why is it crazy?  If the bases are closed, he's not permitted to acquire second base in this context.

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It's a crazy ruling, but LL rules that even if a runner has reached the next base before Time of Pitch, the runner still must be returned to the base. 

 

 

http://www.littleleague.org/learn/newsletters/Fairball_Newsletters/2010/fbmay10/7_13_Base_Running_Majors_and_Below.htm

The batter, who has received a base on balls, goes to first base and STOPS on the base. The pitcher is in possession of the ball on the pitcher’s plate and the catcher is ready to receive the pitch. The batter/ runner now leaves the base in an attempt to advance. This is not legal and constitutes leaving early. Drop the flag. If the pitcher makes no attempt to make a play on the runner, at the end of the advance, the runner, and all other runners on base, will be returned to their original bases because of the violation. Pick up the flag. If the batter/runner returns to first base on his/her own accord, without an attempted play, the penalty will still be in effect for the next pitch. Leave the flag. If, during an attempt to advance, the pitcher begins a motion to deliver a pitch, the violation will be in effect for that pitch and penalized after the pitch or play.

I am not sure what I would do about the out here. I guess it comes down to the last legally acquired base. Defense appealed at the last legally acquired base. I guess I have an out.

 

 

Leaving early is NOT an out - no matter how far he went. Just return him to the base.

 

 

Applied to the OP, if it were LL closed bases, I think it would be an out -- not because he left early, but because his last legally acquired base was still first base, so that remains the base he has to tag up to, doesn't it? Am I missing something?

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It's a crazy ruling, but LL rules that even if a runner has reached the next base before Time of Pitch, the runner still must be returned to the base. 

 

 

http://www.littleleague.org/learn/newsletters/Fairball_Newsletters/2010/fbmay10/7_13_Base_Running_Majors_and_Below.htm

The batter, who has received a base on balls, goes to first base and STOPS on the base. The pitcher is in possession of the ball on the pitcher’s plate and the catcher is ready to receive the pitch. The batter/ runner now leaves the base in an attempt to advance. This is not legal and constitutes leaving early. Drop the flag. If the pitcher makes no attempt to make a play on the runner, at the end of the advance, the runner, and all other runners on base, will be returned to their original bases because of the violation. Pick up the flag. If the batter/runner returns to first base on his/her own accord, without an attempted play, the penalty will still be in effect for the next pitch. Leave the flag. If, during an attempt to advance, the pitcher begins a motion to deliver a pitch, the violation will be in effect for that pitch and penalized after the pitch or play.

I am not sure what I would do about the out here. I guess it comes down to the last legally acquired base. Defense appealed at the last legally acquired base. I guess I have an out.

 

 

Leaving early is NOT an out - no matter how far he went. Just return him to the base.

 

 

Applied to the OP, if it were LL closed bases, I think it would be an out -- not because he left early, but because his last legally acquired base was still first base, so that remains the base he has to tag up to, doesn't it? Am I missing something?

 

 

LL leaving early does not create an out. You just send the runner back.

 

Show me in the OP where F3 tagged the base. It just says they want an out because he didn't come back.

 

If they were doing an appeal with a tag of 1B - then he'd be out if appealed before he returned.

 

But only in the closed base scenario.

 

This game was intermediate - which has open bases - which means his TOP base was 2B.  So no out at 1B for any reason.

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I think I miss read the entire OP. I thought this was Little League Division majors division. & I thought they had legally appealed that he left early.

Too many assumptions. Disregard my post

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It was intermediate.  No leaving early issue. No return to first.

 

 

How did you infer this?  The OP just says Little League, which, with no other qualifier, I would assume is the Little League (major) division.

 

It's a non-question at other levels, so it seemed most relevant to answer in the context where the question makes sense.

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There was a post that said Intermediate Division. Perhaps I misunderstood.

 

And a lot of folks don't understand that if the runner acquires the next base before TOP then it's  a legal advance. That would prompt the "has to return" thought at any level.

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My understanding of LL is that once the pitcher is in position on the rubber the runner is glued to the base until the ball reaches the batter.

He should have been put back.

 

Depends on the leve.  LL has bases with open bases, which would seem to be context of the post.  For those levels, OBR applies and the magic question, as others have stated, is whether he acquired 2d by the time of pitch (as in started the pitch).  In hteOP, whether the U misappled the rule or believed that the pitcher started his pitching motion before the runner got to second, we just don't know.

Right, obviously if they are older they are playing real baseball (Intermediate, Big League).

When I say LL usually I am refereeing to the closed bases variety.

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Guest wjr953

Guys,

    Let's be sure we're talking about. Is it LL Majors with open or closed bases. If it's closed bases, the rule is: if pitcher has the ball and is standing on the rubber, the batter is in the batter's box and the catcher is ready to receive the ball (doesn't have to be in a squat, just be behind the plate with his helmet on), then the R1 must stay on 1B. If he leaves the base if those conditions are met, he's not out he simply is returned to 1B.

 

 

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