Jump to content

Appealing the Fair / Foul ball...

theedeuce

By theedeuce
in Situations

 Share
Umpire-Empire locks topics which have not been active in the last year. The thread you are viewing hasn't been active in 4666 days so you will not be able to post. We do recommend you starting a new topic to find out what's new in the world of umpiring.

Recommended Posts

theedeuce

theedeuce

Posted
Posted

I'm having a difficulty with this situation and I'm getting mixed answers... I'll make it as brief as possible

 

Girls Fastpitch (16U) tournament.

I'm in the field (2 man crew)

 

Situation:

Runner on 2nd, I'm in "C" position. Batter bunts ball down 1st base line. Perfectly executed.

Catcher trails ball in an effort to make play at 1st while 1st base(girl) is rushing in to make play as well.

Just as catcher reaches out to field ball, the ball takes a weird hop, deflects off glove, and heads towards fair/foul line. Catcher bails on the play.

1st base(girl) realizing what just happened continues on, fields the ball just in foul territory hoping to make play at 1st but its too late... batter/runner is too fast and aborts the throw...

Everyone is safe... or so we think... Problem is my partner was behind the catcher and did not see the catcher touch the ball and delcares "FOUL BALL" once the 1st base(girl) touches ball...

First base coach calmly asks for "Time" (time granted) and a conversation ensues between my partner and coach... My partner then brings me in and asked the question, "Did you see the catcher touch the ball"?

I replied "Yes, catcher clearly touched the ball"... My partner then upheld the appeal and reversed the call, at which point the defensive coach then wanted his explaination (and rightfully so)...

 

It is here where I'm having my problem and need a better clarification on the rule...

 

The question was not whether the ball was Fair or Foul, but did the catcher touch the ball... and it was obvious she did... Also, it was obvious that as the play continued there would not have been a play on the Batter/Runner once the catcher booted the ball...

 

The defensive coach was reaching more towards the technical side of the rule claiming once you declare "FOUL BALL" the play is dead regardless of any situation... and I fear he is right...

 

My question is: "Is this an appealable situation"?

 

I would especially like to read this in some case book but to no avail can I find where this situation exists...

 

Please advise...

  • Replies 18
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

grayhawk
grayhawk

Let me preface my post by saying I don't have any knowledge of softball rules.  That said, if this is a Fed baseball game, then an umpire declaring foul cannot be undone - even if he did so in error (

mstaylor
mstaylor

If the fielder pulled the ball down or the runner stopped because of the foul call, certainly stay with foul. Although very unusual, if nobody reacted to the foul call and it was called foul because t

JaxRolo
JaxRolo

Cause is not in the rule book.

grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

Let me preface my post by saying I don't have any knowledge of softball rules.  That said, if this is a Fed baseball game, then an umpire declaring foul cannot be undone - even if he did so in error (see case play 2.16.1 Situation A).  I know MLB has "un-rung the bell" in certain situations where an umpire declared a foul ball.  Not sure when that can and cannot be done at that level.

  • Like 4
mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

If the fielder pulled the ball down or the runner stopped because of the foul call, certainly stay with foul. Although very unusual, if nobody reacted to the foul call and it was called foul because the PU didn't see the touch, you can probably fix it. 

  • Like 2
JaxRolo

JaxRolo

Posted
Posted
They want us to get it right, so why not just get it right?
Cause is not in the rule book.
  • Like 2
Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

 

They want us to get it right, so why not just get it right?
Cause is not in the rule book.

 

Well, like Greyhawk said, it actually IS in the FED rule book. The foul call cannot be overturned. 

umpstu

umpstu

Posted
Posted

Had it happen to me in a three man game. Bunt down first base line stops on the line. The plate umpire calls it foul as myself, trying to help him out am pointing fair. Coach comes out to argue with the plate umpire and I told the coach it doesn't matter. It was called foul and it is a dead ball no matter what I pointed. /thing is I thought the foul call was from the stands or dugout as the foul call was pretty mild and I was waiting to see if the plate umpire was going to call it. Oh well. No harm. No foul.

JaxRolo

JaxRolo

Posted
Posted
They want us to get it right, so why not just get it right?
Cause is not in the rule book. Well, like Greyhawk said, it actually IS in the FED rule book. The foul call cannot be overturned. Yeah but getting it right is not in the rule book.
Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

 

They want us to get it right, so why not just get it right?
Cause is not in the rule book. Well, like Greyhawk said, it actually IS in the FED rule book. The foul call cannot be overturned. Yeah but getting it right is not in the rule book.

 

Ok..My bad :smachhead:

theedeuce

theedeuce

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I will agree on the rule... A Foul is a Foul... thats a given... My partner was not asking for help on the Fair/Foul call and we knew that during our discussion...

Had my partner simply said nothing it would have had no impact on the play; all the runners would still have safely advanced regardless... and I don't fault my partners mechanics either... He did everything as he was trained to do...

 

The question I'm presenting is "Can my partner ask for help in determining if the catcher touched the ball or not"?. I have searched everywhere in case books and nowhere can I find where such a situtaion exists (which suprises me a bit)...

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

Basically the question that needs an answer is can you change the call. In most codes, absolutely not, others maybe. If you decide you can't change it then the touch is irrelevant. Yes, you can ask and get that part right but to what effect if you can't change the call. 

  • Like 2
Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

I don't know softball but there is precedent in OBR to change it. Doesn't happen often, nor should it, but it does happen.

In all codes a ball that clears the fence can be changed from foul to fair. In MLB and maybe MiLB a 2000 interp from Fitzpatrick allows changing foul to fair if everyone ignored the initial call. This has been done in some pro games. In NCAA a foul fly ball past the base can be changed from foul to fair.

mjr_2013

mjr_2013

Posted
Posted

In 99/100 situations, I would agree that the foul bell cannot be un-rung so to speak... I think this is the one time out of a hundred. The foul call, if I'm reading the description correctly, occurred only after all action had ceased in the play. The batter was on 1st, and the R2 was on 3rd.

 

I see this foul call as no different than the girl picking the ball up after the play is over and requesting time. The defense isn't hurt by correcting it, they weren't going to get an out... The offense isn't hurt, they weren't going to advance anymore.

 

Fix it.  :shrug:

  • Like 2
Mr Umpire

Mr Umpire

Posted
Posted

I agree to fix it only if the rules allow it.  And, it didn't affect anything pertaining directly to the play.  If either one is going to be violated (it sounds like FED would be in all situations), then leave it as foul.

theedeuce

theedeuce

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I don't know softball but there is precedent in OBR to change it. Doesn't happen often, nor should it, but it does happen.

mstaylor... Where in OBR do you see that... That would be very gainful in my argument and something I can lean on next time... At least its a start...

 

I'm getting some really good responses and I appreciate the input... I'm still digging and will not rest...

Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

I don't know softball but there is precedent in OBR to change it. Doesn't happen often, nor should it, but it does happen.

mstaylor... Where in OBR do you see that... That would be very gainful in my argument and something I can lean on next time... At least its a start...

 

I'm getting some really good responses and I appreciate the input... I'm still digging and will not rest...

A publication by Carl Childress, called the BRD (Baseball Rules Differences), has this reference as an official interpretation by Mike Fitzpatrick, former director of the PBUC circa 2000.

  • Like 1
 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...