Catcher Thinks It's The 3rd Out

[MidAmUmp]

Since the silly season has officially kicked off with the "what do you wear behind the plate" topic on the equipment board...I thought I'd post some substantive stuff.

 

This was an actual play that occurred this year in a MiLB game...

 

1 out.  Doesn't matter and 2 count on the batter.  Runners on 1st and 2nd.

Next pitch is a called 3rd strike.

Catcher takes off to the dugout with the ball in his glove.

Once he steps into the dugout the manager tells him it's only 2 outs.

The catcher returns to the field.

 

What's the call?

[bam]

2 bases from TOP.  Score R2 send R1 to third.  Ask catcher if he needs a moment alone.

[Texas Manny]

Since the silly season has officially kicked off with the "what do you wear behind the plate" topic on the equipment board...I thought I'd post some substantive stuff.

 

This was an actual play that occurred this year in a MiLB game...

 

1 out.  Doesn't matter and 2 count on the batter.  Runners on 1st and 2nd.

Next pitch is a called 3rd strike.

Catcher takes off to the dugout with the ball in his glove.

Once steps into the dugout the manager tells him it's only 2 outs.

The catcher returns to the field.

 

What's the call?

That's nothing. Since the catcher remained standing, did not sit, fall, or drop the ball, and returned to the field, the ball is alive and in play. No base award. Rule 5.10(F).

 

5.10(F) If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, and does not fall, the ball is in play, and runners may advance at their peril.

[kanedog]

NCAA it's nothing. The only consideration is if ground rules allow for a throw from dead ball area.

Fed would be one base from TOP.

[Mike Prince]

bam's award sounds correct.  F2 carried the ball into an out of play area (not just a bench as referenced above) while play was still live.

[Texas Manny]

bam's award sounds correct.  F2 carried the ball into an out of play area (not just a bench as referenced above) while play was still live.

Dugout's are not an out of play area for a fielder holding the ball unless he falls or drops the ball. If he falls or drops it is a one base award. Dugout's are out of play if a pitched ball goes into the dugout resulting in a one base award. A thrown ball deflected or untouched is a two base award.

[Mr Umpire]

 

bam's award sounds correct.  F2 carried the ball into an out of play area (not just a bench as referenced above) while play was still live.

Dugout's are not an out of play area for a fielder holding the ball unless he falls or drops the ball. If he falls or drops it is a one base award. Dugout's are out of play if a pitched ball goes into the dugout resulting in a one base award. A thrown ball deflected or untouched is a two base award.

 

Unless the ball goes OOP by the catcher in a situation where it would not have otherwise gone OOP (7.05 h).  Once the ball goes OOP by the F2, it becomes a 2 base award.  However, I agree with you on this.  No award since he did not drop the ball nor leave his feet under OBR.

[Texas Manny]

 

 

bam's award sounds correct.  F2 carried the ball into an out of play area (not just a bench as referenced above) while play was still live.

Dugout's are not an out of play area for a fielder holding the ball unless he falls or drops the ball. If he falls or drops it is a one base award. Dugout's are out of play if a pitched ball goes into the dugout resulting in a one base award. A thrown ball deflected or untouched is a two base award.

 

Unless the ball goes OOP by the catcher in a situation where it would not have otherwise gone OOP (7.05 h).  Once the ball goes OOP by the F2, it becomes a 2 base award.  However, I agree with you on this.  No award since he did not drop the ball nor leave his feet under OBR.

 

Mr. Umpire,

 

I'm a little confused by the highlighted statement. Would you please clarify for me?

 

Thank you.

[Mr Umpire]

Once F2 took the ball out of play, the award would no longer be 1 base if he dropped the ball or fell/sat down.  This is the same if he had kicked it OOP when the ball was not going OOP. 

 

It becomes a 2 base award by rule 7.05(h).  The only way it is a 1 base award is if the pitch goes out of play on its own or would have gone OOP on its own if knocked OOP by a fielder.  Once F2 took it out, it did not go OOP on its own and would be 2 bases if he dropped it or fell/sat down.

[Texas Manny]

Once F2 took the ball out of play, the award would no longer be 1 base if he dropped the ball or fell/sat down.  This is the same if he had kicked it OOP when the ball was not going OOP. 

 

It becomes a 2 base award by rule 7.05(h).  The only way it is a 1 base award is if the pitch goes out of play on its own or would have gone OOP on its own if knocked OOP by a fielder.  Once F2 took it out, it did not go OOP on its own and would be 2 bases if he dropped it or fell/sat down.

Gotcha. Thank you. I appreciate the clarification. Two bases if he fell. Nothing if he stood and returned right out.

[Specks]

 

Since the silly season has officially kicked off with the "what do you wear behind the plate" topic on the equipment board...I thought I'd post some substantive stuff.

 

This was an actual play that occurred this year in a MiLB game...

 

1 out.  Doesn't matter and 2 count on the batter.  Runners on 1st and 2nd.

Next pitch is a called 3rd strike.

Catcher takes off to the dugout with the ball in his glove.

Once steps into the dugout the manager tells him it's only 2 outs.

The catcher returns to the field.

 

What's the call?

That's nothing. Since the catcher remained standing, did not sit, fall, or drop the ball, and returned to the field, the ball is alive and in play. No base award. Rule 5.10(F).

 

5.10(F) If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, and does not fall, the ball is in play, and runners may advance at their peril.

 

 

OBR I would rule this for the same reason.

[Specks]

@MidAmUmp

 

What did the runners do during this?

[DVA7130]

My instinct is to agree with @bam. Could I see the rule cite where dugouts are treated differently?

[DVA7130]

Ah OK 5.10(f), but the catcher did not just make a catch. He just carried it.

[JaxRolo]

@MidAmUmp good scenario!

 

My first Instinct is to give the 2 base award.

 

Not sure though and don't think I would get an argument out of most coaches.

 

Hopefully this won't turn into a 546 post thread and I can learn the correct answer soon!

[NCAAump2]

Manny, why is it nothing if he walks in and comes right back out? What's the difference between this scenario and the momentum of a fielder carrying him and the ball into DBT?

[Platejob29]

@Texas Manny is correct. In this situation you have nothing other than a catcher who deserves a swift kick to the nuts for being an idiot and forcing you to explain to the manager who comes out to argue why you don't have anything. It's kind of a weird rule but 5.10(f) is the correct rule to site in this case.

[Mike Prince]

Not to derail a good discussion, but how many of you take that ball out of play and replace it when F2 returns to home plate?  That is the argument I see from a coach - what did he do to that ball in the dugout?

[Texas Manny]

Manny, why is it nothing if he walks in and comes right back out? What's the difference between this scenario and the momentum of a fielder carrying him and the ball into DBT?

Dugouts, which if the photographers booth's, newspaper booth's, camera well, or walkway is directly connected to a dugout, it is considered part of the dugout. Dugouts specifically hold unique status.

 

Footnote 320 and 321 of the Wendelsted Umpires Manual Rules & Interpretations, SS 8.3.1.G(III) Fielder Goes Out of Play After Gaining Possession of the Ball,

 

320: If a camera well or walkway into a dugout is directly connected to the dugout, it will be considered part of the dugout. The ball remains alive and in play if a fielder enters either in possession of the ball, and remains standing. A ground rule cannot supersede this rule in the OBR. For areas that are not part of the dugout, and other dead ball territories that are marked out of play by the home team, will be treated the same as the dugout unless specified in the ground rules of the plate meeting.

 

321: If a fielder drops the ball after stepping into a dugout or other similar dead ball area after securing possession of a pitched, batted, or thrown ball, the award is two bases from the time the ball was dropped.

 

(End of Wendelstedt)

 

A fielder who catches a ball, then goes into the dugout and DOES NOT FALL OR DROP THE BALL, does not cause the ball to be killed by the umpire. The ball remains alive and in play. Rule 5.10F

 

A fielder cannot go into a dugout or any part of the dugout and then catch a ball, under any circumstances.Rule 6.05A

 

A pitch which goes into the dugout, regardless of it being deflected or going directly in, is a one base award. Rule 7.05H

 

A pitch, after getting by the fielder, and remaining on the playing field, which is then kicked into the dugout, is a two base award. Rule 7.05H Approved Ruling Explanations.

 

A throw which goes into the dugout, regardless of it being deflected or going directly in, is a two base award, that will either be based on first throw, time of pitch, or a secondary action, which institutes "time of infraction". Rule 7.05G.

 

 

I hope this helps to clarify the situation you asked.

[Texas Manny]

Not to derail a good discussion, but how many of you take that ball out of play and replace it when F2 returns to home plate?  That is the argument I see from a coach - what did he do to that ball in the dugout?

If you are the plate umpire, or the base umpire, both of you should be watching the ball all the way. What could he possibly do to the ball, that you couldn't see if he steps in and then immediately steps out? Check the ball if you want. If okay, play ball. If not, remove it from play. You are deviating from the OP because the catcher went in and immediately stepped back out and doing monkey shine is not plausible.

[MidAmUmp]

That's nothing. Since the catcher remained standing, did not sit, fall, or drop the ball, and returned to the field, the ball is alive and in play. No base award. Rule 5.10(F).

 

5.10(F) If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, and does not fall, the ball is in play, and runners may advance at their peril.

 

According to PBUC ^^^^^^^^ is the correct answer.

[noumpere]

Not to derail a good discussion, but how many of you take that ball out of play and replace it when F2 returns to home plate?  That is the argument I see from a coach - what did he do to that ball in the dugout?

If its a game where balls get changed frequently (pro or higher level college), then sure, I replace it.  For HS or JuCo for example -- I hope he altered it to throw more strikes!

[MidAmUmp]

 

Not to derail a good discussion, but how many of you take that ball out of play and replace it when F2 returns to home plate?  That is the argument I see from a coach - what did he do to that ball in the dugout?

If its a game where balls get changed frequently (pro or higher level college), then sure, I replace it.  For HS or JuCo for example -- I hope he altered it to throw more strikes!

 

The catcher wasn't in the dugout long enough to do anything to the baseball, but it would probably be a good idea to give him a new baseball to avoid any paranoia.

 

I'm curious why the catcher didn't either throw the ball into the stands or just toss it back to the mound.  You really never see a professional player take a baseball to the dugout with them.

 

On a side note...that's a good bet if you're at a minor league game with a couple buddies.  Everyone throw in a dollar every 1/2 inning and pass the money onto the next person each 1/2.  When a baseball makes it back to the mound after the inning the person with the money wins.

[basejester]

I'm curious why the catcher didn't either throw the ball into the stands or just toss it back to the mound.  You really never see a professional player take a baseball to the dugout with them.

Maybe his pitcher had altered the ball and he wanted to hide the evidence.

[ricka56]

On a side note...that's a good bet if you're at a minor league game with a couple buddies.  Everyone throw in a dollar every 1/2 inning and pass the money onto the next person each 1/2.  When a baseball makes it back to the mound after the inning the person with the money wins.

 

The following will keep you in the game. You and your spectator buddies are dry. You take turns owning each pitch. Pick-off attempts (unless successful) do not end a turn. Whoever owns the inning ending pitch buys the beer. Gotta love the look on the poor sap's face on those inning ending DPs.