C position with R1 and R3

[baseballfan]

Was working with a grad of Jim Evans umpire school today. With runners on first and third, I was getting into B position just as the PBUC red book says. But then he told me to slide over to C. Any thoughts on if this is possibly correct or incorrect?

[Texas Manny]

Schools of thought.

 

Joe Brinkman (1989) With 1st and 3rd with less than two outs, position yourself on the first base side of the mound, also known as the strong side, since the double play will more than likely be your anticipated play. With two outs, go to the weak side, which is the third base side, since the last out will more than likely be at second on the force, or to 1st for the BR.

 

Jim Evans, 2013 Maximizing Two Man System, Chp 9 Runners on 1st and 3rd Base, pg 199, 9.01 Starting Position: With runners on first and third, the base umpire should be positioned behind the mound on the first base side halfway between the rubber, and the second base bag.

 

Hunter Wendelstedt Comprehensive Manual for Two Man System, 2013, Runners on 1st and 3rd, Pg 173, Base Umpire: You will be positioned in the middle of the infield, on the first base side, halfway between the back of the mound and the second base cutout.

 

PBUC Manual for the Two Umpire System, 2006, Section 7 Runners on 1st and 3rd, Pg. 63, 7.1 Postioning: With runners on 1st and 3rd, the base umpire will position himself in exactly the same manner as with a runner on 1st base only. Base umpire sets up half-way between these two imaginary lines( back of mound/cutout 2nd edge), straddling the line from home plate through the edge of the pitchers mound.

 

 

As you can see, only the Joe Brinkman version varies by the number of outs. That was twenty years ago, so adjustments have been made. All three main books are in agreement. You were correct in your positioning. The Jim Evans grad appears to be incorrect in adjusting you.

 

I'm curious, how did he tell you to slide over?

[umpstu]

I went to Joe's school in 1996 and it was always the b side.

[afaber12]

Was working with a grad of Jim Evans umpire school today. With runners on first and third, I was getting into B position just as the PBUC red book says. But then he told me to slide over to C. Any thoughts on if this is possibly correct or incorrect?

Obviously the various schools and manuals have the collected wisdom of many knowledgeable and experienced umpires, so following their advice is at worst a good starting point. That combined wisdom (at least for now) say for that situation to be in B. At least in my personal experience, R3 is the least likely to have a play attempted on, either in terms of a pickoff attempt or after the ball is hit, and the most likely play on R3 is a play at the plate, which is not your responsibility as BU. So it makes sense to me that wherever the best position is for when there's only R1, that its also likely to be the best position for R1 and R3.

 

I have been at grounds where at certain times of day you can get glare of the metal roof of a canteen building, or from a car's windshield in the car park that the light somehow manages to find its way over the trees to get to the car, then through the trees to your eyes. I doubt anyone would have a problem with being in the B instead of C or C instead of B; I'd rather the umpire be able to see but be in a slightly worse than ideal position for the play, than be in the "perfect" position but can't see the play because of black spots still dancing in front of his eyes. I find it pretty tough to hear if a runner was tagged before he reached the base.

 

Like @Texas Manny, I'm curious how you were told you should move. I was working with a particular partner for the first time, and didn't know what if any formal training he'd had. I later found out that I'd had more formal training, though not necessarily more hands-on experience. At one point in the game he was setting up in B with R1 and R2. Knowing that if I was too obvious I could undermine his authority for the rest of the game, not to mention royally piss him off if he reacted the wrong way, I tried to subtly let him know to move over to C, tilting my head that way, pointing my fingers that way but keeping my hands down by my sides. Either I was too subtle or he didn't understand, so for that hitter he stayed in B. I think he walked, and my partner shifted to C for the now loaded bases. When he came to me at the change of innings (something he did every change), we clarified the positioning, and I made sure next time we worked together to mention it in the pre-game to hopefully avoid the situation again.

[noumpere]

Ive read somewhere that there are three different philosophies about B and C positioning:

 

1) Be in C whenever theres a runner at second or third

2) Be in C when a steal of third is possible

3) Be in B when a steal of second is possible

 

The "right" answer of course depends on who you are working for and more likely the position they were in the last time something happened and they either got it right because of the position they wer in or they got it wrong because of the position and so they think they should move. 

[grayhawk]

Both Fed and CCA call for the base umpire to be in the "B" position with R1 and R3.

[Jocko]

Often, when I know that F2 isn't gonna throw to 2B on a steal (read: DONT THROW IT. THERES A RUNNER ON 3B!!) I just camp out in C. :)

[Haid D' Salaami]

Was working with a grad of Jim Evans umpire school today. With runners on first and third, I was getting into B position just as the PBUC red book says. But then he told me to slide over to C. Any thoughts on if this is possibly correct or incorrect?

I guess he didnt finish too high at Jims...LOL   tell him to go and reread the book.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Often, when I know that F2 isn't gonna throw to 2B on a steal (read: DONT THROW IT. THERES A RUNNER ON 3B!!) I just camp out in C.

I understand your thinking.... but theres a reason were put in the "B".. for the double plays.. its been that way for yrs... you should always work it the way its taught. it will help....and I cant tell if your joking or not Jocko..LOL

[ricka56]

I don't know if anyone has made this point yet, but with R3/R1, being closer for a batted ball play at 1B is not a good reason to be in 'B'...just saying...                   

[Texas Manny]

I don't know if anyone has made this point yet, but with R3/R1, being closer for a batted ball play at 1B is not a good reason to be in 'B'...just saying...                   

Would you please give it up already? You already had one thread locked down with your stubbornness. Don't come over here and start this crap. The answers have already been given. R1 and R3 proper positioning is "B".

[ricka56]

self edited/deleted

[JaxRolo]

Lock it!!!

[mstaylor]

Every manual I have ever seen says B, and it makes sense. Your Evans grad was wrong. As far as being in B on a batted ball, it makes no difference on an outfield ball, it is absolutely correct on an infield hit. I don't want to lock this, please keep it civil. 

[VAUmp]

R1 & R3 -- Our association says we are in B.

 

So I go to B

 

That is all.

[JaxRolo]

R1 & R3 -- Our association says we are in B.

 

So I go to B

 

That is all.

 

No more, no less