balk or legal

[BalkHawk]

Is this a legal move or a fake to 1B?

[Jocko]

Hmmmmm... you tell me

[BalkHawk]

Let's see the very next frame, Jocko.

[Jocko]

Let's see the very next frame, Jocko.

[Jocko]

I got nothing

[BalkHawk]

I got both feet in the air simultaneously.

[th3]

i got a balk 

[Jocko]

I got both feet in the air simultaneously.

2nd pic. Right toe is on the ground when left foot comes up. And if it takes freeze fram replay and stop motion photography to catch, whatever was called (or not called) is the right call. Lol

[Mr Umpire]

Poor angle to be truly definitive.  The question is, for me, did his back foot go behind the rubber or more towards 3B for a jab step?  I think it went behind the rubber and thus, no balk.  No way to tell in regular motion if both feet are moving at the same time or not.  I have no balk b/c both movements don't appear to be simultaneous.  The back foot appears to hit the ground before the front foot moves.

[noumpere]

Poor angle to be truly definitive.  The question is, for me, did his back foot go behind the rubber or more towards 3B for a jab step? 

I agree with this and with 4 umpires out there Im pretty sure U1 U2 or U3 could see where the foot was.

[BalkHawk]

[noumpere]

'>

Im confused as to what this picture has to do with a potential balk call in a different game?

[BalkHawk]

with your line of logic, professional umpires would never have missed a call in a hundred years. The goal of the OP was for people to explain to me how to interpret a stutter step/spin move vs. a disengage. Thanks to you that have.

It seems to me that unless he disengages before he begins to spin his whole body, he's doing a jab step, in which case he would need to complete the throw to 1st. 

 

If you voted legal disengage, would you say that this is perhaps grey area, or do you think that as long as the jab step is off the back of the rubber he's good?

[BalkHawk]

 

'>

Im confused as to what this picture has to do with a potential balk call in a different game?

 

I was showing how awesome and athletic you look with wristbands and compression sleeves!

[noumpere]

It seems to me that unless he disengages before he begins to spin his whole body, he's doing a jab step, in which case he would need to complete the throw to 1st. 

 

 

True by a strict reading of the rule but not true in practice.  Its like the lefty step-back-and-throw move.  By rule, you need to get the pivot foot on the ground before the hands even separate.  In practice as long as the foot goes back first and reaches the ground before the throw (or maybe before the arm starts forward), its judged to be legal. 

[Fittske24]

Balk..... Twice

 

 

First I have F1 breaking his front knee as his first movement. With this, he is now committed to deliver a pitch. He does not.....Balk.

 

Now lets say F1 doesn't break his front knee....

 

I have a spin move with a subsequent feint to first. A spin move regardless of where his pivot foot lands (On, off, or astride the rubber) is considered to be an "on the rubber" Pickoff move. Any "on the rubber" pick off move requires a throw to first. Since F1 feints his throw....Balk

[th3]

  A spin move regardless of where his pivot foot lands (On, off, or astride the rubber) is considered to be an "on the rubber" Pickoff move. Any "on the rubber" pick off move requires a throw to first. Since F1 feints his throw....Balk

 

 

is this universally accepted?

[grayhawk]

Once he disengages, he can pirouette all day long as far as I'm concerned.  It matters where the pivot foot lands, and if it's behind the rubber, then it's not a balk (assuming he doesn't balk prior to disengaging, of course).

[Richvee]

I'm seeing this move a lot in my games (mostly 14u through 18u). It's a sure fire argument (or at least discussion) with me and the DM. He makes that move and feints. If I call a balk, DM argues he stepped off. He makes the same move, throws the ball away into DBT. If  I award R1 3rd base I hear, "He spun on the rubber." 

 

Would the fact he turned his shoulders before disengaging define this as a spin move or "throw/feint from the rubber" regardless of where the pivot foot lands?

[Fittske24]

  A spin move regardless of where his pivot foot lands (On, off, or astride the rubber) is considered to be an "on the rubber" Pickoff move. Any "on the rubber" pick off move requires a throw to first. Since F1 feints his throw....Balk

 

 

is this universally accepted?

 

 

Yes, A jump turn or spin move is considered to be on the rubber.

[noumpere]

 

  A spin move regardless of where his pivot foot lands (On, off, or astride the rubber) is considered to be an "on the rubber" Pickoff move. Any "on the rubber" pick off move requires a throw to first. Since F1 feints his throw....Balk

 

 

is this universally accepted?

 

 

Yes, A jump turn or spin move is considered to be on the rubber.

 

while that last statement is true, if the pivot foot lands behind the rubber its likely not a spin move / jab step.

[th3]

while that last statement is true, if the pivot foot lands behind the rubber its likely not a spin move / jab step.

 

is this universally accepted??

[Fittske24]

  A spin move regardless of where his pivot foot lands (On, off, or astride the rubber) is considered to be an "on the rubber" Pickoff move. Any "on the rubber" pick off move requires a throw to first. Since F1 feints his throw....Balk  is this universally accepted?

 Yes, A jump turn or spin move is considered to be on the rubber.

while that last statement is true, if the pivot foot lands behind the rubber its likely not a spin move / jab step.

Not true. If the movement is a single movement ie...jump,spin, or turn it doesn't matter where the non-pivot foot lands. This type of movement is considered to be "on the rubber" and requires a completed throw to first.

[noumpere]

"jump" I agree;

 

For the others I think we are just talking past each other. Botha jab step and a step-off-and-throw are continuous.  It's tough to make a one-move-jab-step with the pivot foot ending up behind the rubber.  if the pivot foot ends up behind the rubber, 99% of the time it's a step off.

[Jimurray]

Balk..... Twice

 

 

First I have F1 breaking his front knee as his first movement. With this, he is now committed to deliver a pitch. He does not.....Balk.

 

Now lets say F1 doesn't break his front knee....

 

I have a spin move with a subsequent feint to first. A spin move regardless of where his pivot foot lands (On, off, or astride the rubber) is considered to be an "on the rubber" Pickoff move. Any "on the rubber" pick off move requires a throw to first. Since F1 feints his throw....Balk

I don't understand why the front bend is a balk. They have to bend it to make any kind of move. The WUM does have this wording though regarding the back knee:

"The pitcher BREAKS HIS BACK KNEE, and throws to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner [8.05(a)]."

The all caps is bolded in the WUM. The fact that they emphasize the back knee to me suggests that they allow the front knee to break because the pitcher has to do it to make any kind of move.