Wouldn't do this at home...

[zm1283]

 

 

 

Because the other three umpires are not responsible for a HBP.  If the PU wanted to get help he could have but it's up to him.

 

I thought I read that they did get together and then if no one saw it well no one saw it.

 

 

They may have gotten together, I don't know.  My point was that the initial HBP call is the PU's.  If I'm working the bases and I think I saw a pitch hit a batter, I'm not doing anything until he comes to me for help.  

[soapbox]

 

 

 

Does anybody on this board signal an uncaught third strike by holding a point?

yes and that should be the only way you do this, and saying ( unless it rolls that far away) no catch.

 

Never seen this point to the side mechanic for a D3K.... point to the ground, signal safe with "no catch" I've seen, but not pointing like that?  Please explain when you say "that should be the only way to do it"

 

 

You're signaling a swinging strike by pointing to the side instead of giving a hammer for the out because he's not out yet.  There is no need to point to the ground, and you don't have to give the "no catch" signal unless it isn't clear if the catcher caught it or not.  In this video, he obviously didn't catch it so there is no need for the "no catch" signal, so he just points to the side to signal that it was a strike.  What do you point to the ground for?

 

 

 

Does anybody on this board signal an uncaught third strike by holding a point?

yes and that should be the only way you do this, and saying ( unless it rolls that far away) no catch.

I'm confused.

 

Pitch hits the batter-swinging.  Strike three, batter out, dead ball.  What I'm I missing?

If the PU didnt see the ball hit the Batter foot, what do you want him to call?

 

I'd like one of the 3 other umpires to see what happened and kill it.  How about getting the call right?

 

 

Because the other three umpires are not responsible for a HBP.  If the PU wanted to get help he could have but it's up to him.

 

I disagree.  I want the call right.  If one of the other 3 has a view, call it.  Same with a foul in the box.  Sorry, I'm all for getting it right.  I think that's what we should do.

[zm1283]

I disagree.  I want the call right.  If one of the other 3 has a view, call it.  Same with a foul in the box.  Sorry, I'm all for getting it right.  I think that's what we should do.

 

 

 

You can disagree all you want, but that is not how trained umpires handle this.  Go work with experienced professional or college umpires and call a HBP from the bases unsolicited and see how it works out for you.  I wouldn't want to be a part of that postgame.

 

Would you do the same if there wasn't a swing involved?  I have had many times where I THINK a batter got hit but he didn't, and a few times when he did get hit where I didn't see it from the bases.  Am I supposed to go running in and step on my partner's toes just because you want to get the call "right" (In your mind).

[soapbox]

I have called time on a HBP from the bases. Sometimes, you just can't see everything at the plate.

[zm1283]

I have called time on a HBP from the bases. Sometimes, you just can't see everything at the plate.

 

Like I said, do that with competent umpires and you will hear about it in the postgame if not before.  

 

I'll try to be as nice as I can here, but.....

 

You need to get to a clinic with experienced instructors.  You are going to be in the minority on this board as well.  

[soapbox]

Batter fouls ball off his foot. You see it from say "C". You're not calling it foul? You let the ball roll fair and deal with the aftermath? Coach sees it, you see it, F1 sees it, and you let it go so as to not step on U1 toes? I guess I won't be working with these guys. They aren't interested in getting the call right, just not being shown up. I don't think it puts U1 in a poor light. I think it is responsible umpiring. JMO.

[zm1283]

Batter fouls ball off his foot. You see it from say "C". You're not calling it foul? You let the ball roll fair and deal with the aftermath? Coach sees it, you see it, F1 sees it, and you let it go so as to not step on U1 toes? I guess I won't be working with these guys. They aren't interested in getting the call right, just not being shown up. I don't think it puts U1 in a poor light. I think it is responsible umpiring. JMO.

 

A foul ball is different than a HBP.  Yes, I would kill it if I saw it hit the batter.

[soapbox]

If you can kill a foul ball, why in the world wouldn't you kill something resulting in a db situation if you know you saw it. I'm not saying maybe, I'm saying my partner didn't have the view I did. Sometimes I really hate the code. I think I am a pretty good umpire, and I would never step on a partner, but if you kill a foul what is justification for not calling that. The video proves that what we saw from the front angle was missed by F1. If U3 or U4 sees that, why would U1 care. If I were on the dish, I'd value the extra set of eyes if my partner really did see it.

[noumpere]

Batter fouls ball off his foot. You see it from say "C". You're not calling it foul? You let the ball roll fair and deal with the aftermath? Coach sees it, you see it, F1 sees it, and you let it go so as to not step on U1 toes? I guess I won't be working with these guys. They aren't interested in getting the call right, just not being shown up. I don't think it puts U1 in a poor light. I think it is responsible umpiring. JMO.

That's not what hes talking about and I agree with him.  Different play different mechanic and expectation.  Yes you should try to make eye contact and if asked you should give information including how sure you are (ranging from "I think" to "110% sure" and including "based on the reactions").

I would never step on a partner,

 

Based on what you've written here you would.  lol.

[BigUmpire]

Sure miss my 2 partners I called tournament ball with for 4 years (dead)

We could just look at each other when we had a "situation" and know if we had steped in it or not and if we should confer to get things right OR get out of a mess.

Both Doug and Tony were little guys BUT would be right next to each othernad/or me if things got bad.

 

The guy that broke my arm with a bat was actually going after Doug BUT I got in his way.

 

We always had each others backs.

 

Find you a good friend or 2 with similar schedules and let the TDs and assignors you work as a team.

[HeadHunterLA]

Way to go Cooper, totally miss one and then act like an ass, well done.

[jpperez14]

Everybody should just go Jerry Lane's style. Stand straight face, let whatever they want to say be said, if you have to boot him do it, but no reaction or response is better than trying to pull a stunt like this. unprofessional. but, we are human sometimes we have our bad days?

[zm1283]

If you can kill a foul ball, why in the world wouldn't you kill something resulting in a db situation if you know you saw it. I'm not saying maybe, I'm saying my partner didn't have the view I did. Sometimes I really hate the code. I think I am a pretty good umpire, and I would never step on a partner, but if you kill a foul what is justification for not calling that. The video proves that what we saw from the front angle was missed by F1. If U3 or U4 sees that, why would U1 care. If I were on the dish, I'd value the extra set of eyes if my partner really did see it.

So any play where the ball might become dead gives you the impetus to step on your partner's toes? Why not just change his no-catch call in the outfield to a catch because you thought you had a better look? Go ahead as the PU and overrule your partner on a pulled foot at first unsolicited too.

[soapbox]

I'm not taking shots at you. Not sure why you feel it necessary to take them at me. That's fine. I'm comfortable with what I am saying. I have taken clinics with some higher level guys. I do take it serious. However, on this play, whether I'm on the bases or behind the plate, I'm in favor of letting the kids determine the outcome of the game. And I'm not so proud, that I would be embarrassed that my partner saw something that I did not.

[noumpere]

. However, on this play, whether I'm on the bases or behind the plate, I'm in favor of letting the kids determine the outcome of the game. And I'm not so proud, that I would be embarrassed that my partner saw something that I did not.

No one is disagreeing with those two points only in your method of accomplishing them.

[CentralOhioUmp30]

I disagree. I want the call right. If one of the other 3 has a view, call it. Same with a foul in the box. Sorry, I'm all for getting it right. I think that's what we should do.

You can disagree all you want, but that is not how trained umpires handle this. Go work with experienced professional or college umpires and call a HBP from the bases unsolicited and see how it works out for you. I wouldn't want to be a part of that postgame.

Would you do the same if there wasn't a swing involved? I have had many times where I THINK a batter got hit but he didn't, and a few times when he did get hit where I didn't see it from the bases. Am I supposed to go running in and step on my partner's toes just because you want to get the call "right" (In your mind).

I know several D1 guys who would wholeheartedly disagree with you. Your logic makes it seem that all dead balls aren't created equal.

If I am 100% certain that a ball made contact with a player, I would make the call ASAP and loudly so that play stopped. This one should've been fairly obvious to the third base umpire mainly because of the way BR lifted his leg immediately after.

As far as the rest of your diatribe is concerned, if something like this happens and I as PU miss it and then I hear post-game that my partner saw it, but didn't want to "step on my toes" I'd be FURIOUS. I guess my ego isn't that big, plus I realize if my partner does that and is wrong he's thrown himself under the bus.

If it's obvious, I want my partner to call it. Now if he's not 100% sure he should probably not say anything, but I certainly wouldn't grill his ass after the game.

[zm1283]

I'm not taking shots at you. Not sure why you feel it necessary to take them at me. That's fine. I'm comfortable with what I am saying. I have taken clinics with some higher level guys. I do take it serious. However, on this play, whether I'm on the bases or behind the plate, I'm in favor of letting the kids determine the outcome of the game. And I'm not so proud, that I would be embarrassed that my partner saw something that I did not.

 

I'm not taking shots at you.  I'm asking legitimate questions and you've yet to answer any of them.  

 

I think we're all in favor of letting the kids determine the outcome.  No one every said otherwise.

 

 

I know several D1 guys who would wholeheartedly disagree with you. Your logic makes it seem that all dead balls aren't created equal.

If I am 100% certain that a ball made contact with a player, I would make the call ASAP and loudly so that play stopped. This one should've been fairly obvious to the third base umpire mainly because of the way BR lifted his leg immediately after.

As far as the rest of your diatribe is concerned, if something like this happens and I as PU miss it and then I hear post-game that my partner saw it, but didn't want to "step on my toes" I'd be FURIOUS. I guess my ego isn't that big, plus I realize if my partner does that and is wrong he's thrown himself under the bus.

If it's obvious, I want my partner to call it. Now if he's not 100% sure he should probably not say anything, but I certainly wouldn't grill his ass after the game.

 

 

I would like to meet these guys then.  All dead balls (Or balls that can become dead) are not created equal.  I'll post another scenario: You're on the plate and your partner is in A.  The batter hits a line drive right over his head, he turns and points it fair but you feel it was foul.  Are you going to kill that too?  We want to get it "right", don't we?  What if you're the BU and a batter bunts a ball fair but you're "certain" you see his foot out of the batter's box?  Are you going to kill that too and call him out?

 

I'm more than fairly certain how the NCAA powers-that-be would want this handled if the question was posed at the NCAA meeting.  We already know how professional umpires handle it since we have a video of it posted in this thread.  You contend that one of the other three saw it, so assuming they did, why didn't they kill it? 

[scrounge]

The only way I would call a hit batter from the bases is if it's one of those 100%, everyone in the stadium saw it, if I don't reverse this call my partner will be on youtube/Deadspin kind of calls. In other words, pretty damn rare.

[soapbox]

Now you are just looking for an argument. Your 2 scenarios are ridiculous and do not pertain to this thread, thus, I declare you the winner. Good job.

[CentralOhioUmp30]

zm1283,

 

In the first scenario you referenced, I wouldn't interfere for a couple reasons:  A) Once my partner makes the decision to stay in A to make the call, I have no right to interfere.  It's simply not my call.  B)  Once I see my partner turn his back I am hauling ass to get into the infield in case BR attempts for 2B.

 

In the second scenario I guess you could theoretically make the call from the bases, but I don't think I could ever be 100% sure that the batter was out of the box and even if I was 100% sure, the chances a competent PU sees that occur is also 100%, so I wouldn't need to make a call.

 

I realize you are just trying to be cute here (I hope so anyway), but any umpire who would have a problem with a partner interfering with this kind of play is not a guy I would want to work with anyway.  I've worked with my share of    in the past, but I've never had a problem in this regard.

 

As far as how a professional umpire handles this, what makes you so sure any of them saw it and ignored it.  I said U4 SHOULD have seen it because if it was pretty clear to me watching it from a camera situated in centerfield, so the angle U4 had should have been spectacular.  I don't know who U4 is (seems like ESPN has their umpire rotations messed up), but if he clearly saw the ball hit the batter's foot and let it go then he's a dick and threw his partner under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

[blue23ll]

 

 

 

 

 

If you are a BU and you see a pitch hit the batter you aren't going to kill the play?

 

 

No.

 

 

 

I signal strikes with a sideways point, but not a D3K. I feel anything you do with your right hand a D3K situation apart from signalling the strike is/can be confusing. I will signal safe, meaning no catch, but that's about all. I haven't seen the 'point and hold' signal before.

 

Why is it confusing?  The catcher can't see you signal anything, and he's the one who has to get the ball and throw it.  If he and the batter aren't clear about whether or not it was caught, give the "no catch" signal and verbal or verbally tell them it was caught if it was.  The point to the side is signaling a swinging strike, just like you would on strike one or two.

 

 

I don't know why it's confusing, you tell me? I'm not the players and coaches. The issue is never with the catcher anyway, its with the runner generally and the other fielders. As far as the signalling, do you hold the signal for that long generally? The whole purpose of a D3K mechanic is to avoid the cluster that they can become.

 

 

You just said in the last post it is/can be confusing, so why am I telling you?

 

Never mind.

 

 

I checked out on this guy many threads ago...just saying.

[zm1283]

zm1283,

 

In the first scenario you referenced, I wouldn't interfere for a couple reasons:  A) Once my partner makes the decision to stay in A to make the call, I have no right to interfere.  It's simply not my call.  B)  Once I see my partner turn his back I am hauling ass to get into the infield in case BR attempts for 2B.

 

In the second scenario I guess you could theoretically make the call from the bases, but I don't think I could ever be 100% sure that the batter was out of the box and even if I was 100% sure, the chances a competent PU sees that occur is also 100%, so I wouldn't need to make a call.

 

I realize you are just trying to be cute here (I hope so anyway), but any umpire who would have a problem with a partner interfering with this kind of play is not a guy I would want to work with anyway.  I've worked with my share of    in the past, but I've never had a problem in this regard.

 

As far as how a professional umpire handles this, what makes you so sure any of them saw it and ignored it.  I said U4 SHOULD have seen it because if it was pretty clear to me watching it from a camera situated in centerfield, so the angle U4 had should have been spectacular.  I don't know who U4 is (seems like ESPN has their umpire rotations messed up), but if he clearly saw the ball hit the batter's foot and let it go then he's a dick and threw his partner under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

 

I doubt they would want you on their crew either.

 

Get your own calls. 

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

 

Does anybody on this board signal an uncaught third strike by holding a point?

yes and that should be the only way you do this, and saying ( unless it rolls that far away) no catch.

 

Never seen this point to the side mechanic for a D3K.... point to the ground, signal safe with "no catch" I've seen, but not pointing like that?  Please explain when you say "that should be the only way to do it"

 

in the last few years of baseball you haven't seen one umpire College or pro signal the U3K by just pointing like we do on the other strikes ( I'm not a hammer user).. If the batter is unsure or it is close to the plate where the batter might not know the status of the ball, I can give a verbal " no catch":.. think about how many signals in a 2 sec span we can give.. K.I.S.S.

 1 mechanic, there isnt even a reason for a no catch signal.. make it simple.

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

 

Does anybody on this board signal an uncaught third strike by holding a point?

yes and that should be the only way you do this, and saying ( unless it rolls that far away) no catch.

I'm confused.

 

Pitch hits the batter-swinging.  Strike three, batter out, dead ball.  What I'm I missing?

If the PU didnt see the ball hit the Batter foot, what do you want him to call?

 

I'd like one of the 3 other umpires to see what happened and kill it.  How about getting the call right?

 

So the 1st base umpire who is 120" away and the ball hits the batter on the inside of his foot, you want him to call it.but Obviously he didnt see it hit the batter, cause that is a mechanic that if a base umpires see 100% that a ball hit a batter is to kill it.

 

But wait maybe the 2nd base umpire who is even farther away can kill this one?

 

1 more  left the 3rd base umpire who is looking in there with a good angle, but is not sure..

 

Heck are you who is sitting on his nice couch looking with his DVR and 55" tv even sure it hit him?... throw your red flag and challenge the play.

[Fittske24]

Here is my method of signaling D3k. This is the same method you see used/taught in the video as well as used by umpires working higher levels of baseball.......

 

 

- On DK3 I will give my swinging strike Mechanic (pointing strike mechanic) with arm extended.
- If it is unclear to the off. or def. that the ball was dropped (i.e. short hop), i will also give a verbal "No Catch"
- I take a read step right or left as needed to see the possible tag attempt.
- If tag is made, I give my OUT mechanic.
- If tag is attempted and missed, I will give the SAFE mechanic.
- If no tag attempt is made, I will leave my right arm extended until runner steps out of the dirt circle.

I try to let the play dictate what mechanics to use. Remember that our safe mechanic has many meanings....."Safe", "No catch", "that's Nothing", "balls in play" etc. To everyone else, safe mechanic only looks like safe. So I try to use it only when the situation calls for it.