Catch or Homer Run

[Don in Washington]

What do you have?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/outfielder-makes-amazing-over-fence-catch-gives-home-100944382.html

[mstaylor]

Catch

[elares]

If Little League, I have dead ball,  catch, batter is out, runners advance 1 base.

[mstaylor]

If Little League, I have dead ball,  catch, batter is out, runners advance 1 base.

Why the qualification? 

[Don in Washington]

I recall a catch by Jay Buhner in Boston. 

 

http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=20184323

 

 

It was called a catch. 

[elares]

 

If Little League, I have dead ball,  catch, batter is out, runners advance 1 base.

Why the qualification? 

 

because that's the rule set that I think I know

[LMSANS]

Catch under HS rules...

 

2.9.1 SITUATION C:

B1 hits a fly ball to F8. F8 gets the ball in his hands but it is dropped (a) when he falls to the ground and rolls over; or (b) when he collides with a fielder or a wall; or © when he starts to throw to the infield.

RULING: In (a) and (b), it is not a catch. In ©, it is a legal catch if an umpire rules that the ball was dropped as the fielder voluntarily removed the ball from the glove.

COMMENT: The playing field includes both fair and foul playing territory. Any other areas beyond the playing field are defined as being outside the playing field (dead-ball area). Any wall, fence, barricade, rope, wire, marked or imaginary line is considered a part of the playing field. Any areas beyond those boundaries are outside the playing field. A fielder's status, generally, is determined by the location of his feet, and when a foot is touching a boundary line or the playing field inside the boundary line, he has not left the playing field, even though his other foot might be in contact with the area beyond the boundary line. Umpires may use the following guidelines to determine the status of a fielder following the catch of a batted or thrown live ball: (1) It is a catch when he has one or both feet touching the playing field, or with both feet in flight prior to his touching any dead-ball area. (2) If after making the catch both feet are entirely in a dead-ball area, the ball becomes dead. (3) If the ball is caught after he has established his position outside the playing field, it is not a legal catch. Also remember that whenever a dead ball follows a catch, there are instances when one or more runners may be awarded bases. (5-1-1i, 8-3-3d)

My bold emphasis.

[grayhawk]

I can honestly see an argument either way - especially in Fed.  If you use the location of where the fence comes up from the ground (imagine a chalk line there instead of a crappy fence), one of F7's feet is beyond that line and the other one is in the air.  In Fed, it would not be a legal catch.  In other words, he stepped into DBT and then caught the ball - no catch.

 

What if he stepped 2 feet up the fence and his foot landed on the ground with the fence under his foot well past that line and the other foot is in the air?

[LMSANS]

I can honestly see an argument either way - especially in Fed.  If you use the location of where the fence comes up from the ground (imagine a chalk line there instead of a crappy fence), one of F7's feet is beyond that line and the other one is in the air.  In Fed, it would not be a legal catch.  In other words, he stepped into DBT and then caught the ball - no catch.

 

What if he stepped 2 feet up the fence and his foot landed on the ground with the fence under his foot well past that line and the other foot is in the air?

I'm changing my call for HS.  As Greyhawk points out, his foot is beyond the fence line...DBT...No catch, but the runners do advance a base!

[grayhawk]

 

I can honestly see an argument either way - especially in Fed.  If you use the location of where the fence comes up from the ground (imagine a chalk line there instead of a crappy fence), one of F7's feet is beyond that line and the other one is in the air.  In Fed, it would not be a legal catch.  In other words, he stepped into DBT and then caught the ball - no catch.

 

What if he stepped 2 feet up the fence and his foot landed on the ground with the fence under his foot well past that line and the other foot is in the air?

I'm changing my call for HS.  As Greyhawk points out, his foot is beyond the fence line...DBT...No catch, but the runners do advance a base!

 

 

Since it was no catch, then it's a home run, so touch 'em all.

[maven]

For FED, how many feet have to be in DBT for him to be out? (Hint: it's more than one.)

[grayhawk]

For FED, how many feet have to be in DBT for him to be out? (Hint: it's more than one.)

One in DBT and one in the air = no catch.

[Kevin_K]

I beleive this was a point of clarification in NJ last HS season.

 

If the fielder extends the field of play, as this player did by pushing the collapsible fence out at the :11 mark, it should be a home run. Note that both feet are not on the ground and the one that is on the ground appears to be beyond where the fence meets the ground.

 

With that said, to make the call in a live situation and virtually no angle to see the extension of the fence would be difficult at best.

[mstaylor]

Nope still a catch in Fed and OBR. In NCAA, I believe one foot in dead ball makes it a no catch but I'm not sure. Live, stepping on the face of the fence is probably not going to be seen. So likely it is a catch in all three codes. 

[grayhawk]

Nope still a catch in Fed and OBR. In NCAA, I believe one foot in dead ball makes it a no catch but I'm not sure. Live, stepping on the face of the fence is probably not going to be seen. So likely it is a catch in all three codes.

Not in Fed Michael. The case play Larry posted above spells it out. Agree that it would be difficult to call during live action, but they did in this case and got it right.

[LMSANS]

 

 

I can honestly see an argument either way - especially in Fed.  If you use the location of where the fence comes up from the ground (imagine a chalk line there instead of a crappy fence), one of F7's feet is beyond that line and the other one is in the air.  In Fed, it would not be a legal catch.  In other words, he stepped into DBT and then caught the ball - no catch.

 

What if he stepped 2 feet up the fence and his foot landed on the ground with the fence under his foot well past that line and the other foot is in the air?

I'm changing my call for HS.  As Greyhawk points out, his foot is beyond the fence line...DBT...No catch, but the runners do advance a base!

 

 

Since it was no catch, then it's a home run, so touch 'em all.

 

Duh!  

[noumpere]

Here's the NCAA definition:

 

(2) The flexible nylon windscreen-type fence is neither solid nor secure and presents a problem when determining if a ball is caught within the field of play. In such a case, caught within the field of play shall mean that the defensive player must have possession of the ball (legal catch) while inside the boundary of the fence. The catch CANNOT be made legally while the player's foot is stepping on, over or against the fence. All other rules pertaining to a legal catch shall be the same as Rule 2, definition of a catch.

A.R. - A defensive player may touch or lean against the fence with the body or hands and make a legal catch even though the fence is pushed back, but may not push back or down with either foot. This rule also pertains to an out-of-bounds fence.

 

 

Hard for me to tell whether the player's foot was stepping on the fence -- he clearly was leaning against it.  in real time, Id go with a catch in all codes.

[maven]

 

Nope still a catch in Fed and OBR. In NCAA, I believe one foot in dead ball makes it a no catch but I'm not sure. Live, stepping on the face of the fence is probably not going to be seen. So likely it is a catch in all three codes.

Not in Fed Michael. The case play Larry posted above spells it out. Agree that it would be difficult to call during live action, but they did in this case and got it right.

 

 

Well in the case play itself, the fielder dropped the ball, so that's not what's doing the work here.

 

The COMMENT, however, offers some guidance:

 

COMMENT: The playing field includes both fair and foul playing territory. Any other areas beyond the playing field are defined as being outside the playing field (dead-ball area). Any wall, fence, barricade, rope, wire, marked or imaginary line is considered a part of the playing field. Any areas beyond those boundaries are outside the playing field. A fielder's status, generally, is determined by the location of his feet, and when a foot is touching a boundary line or the playing field inside the boundary line, he has not left the playing field, even though his other foot might be in contact with the area beyond the boundary line. Umpires may use the following guidelines to determine the status of a fielder following the catch of a batted or thrown live ball: (1) It is a catch when he has one or both feet touching the playing field, or with both feet in flight prior to his touching any dead-ball area. (2) If after making the catch both feet are entirely in a dead-ball area, the ball becomes dead. (3) If the ball is caught after he has established his position outside the playing field, it is not a legal catch. Also remember that whenever a dead ball follows a catch, there are instances when one or more runners may be awarded bases. (5-1-1i, 8-3-3d)

 

The crucial statement is in red. I don't see how you get from this guidance to ruling the play in the OP a HR: the fielder steps on the fence, which is part of the field (LBT, per 2-42-1). He then leaves his feet, completes the catch, and lands in DBT.

 

The batter is out, the ball is dead, catch and carry, award other runners 1 base per 8-3-3d.

 

If you're ruling that he somehow steps in DBT by going "under" the fence — that's a pretty big booger to pick, IMHO. If his body is inside the fence, he's in LBT.

[umpcoachfather]

Catch. 

[grayhawk]

@maven: As I said in my first post, I can see it both ways.  Thanks to noumpere, we know that this is not a catch in NCAA because they specifically addressed a "flexible nylon windscreen-type fence".  Fed does not address a case like this specifically.

 

The question at hand in Fed is not whether one foot in DBT and one in the air prior to the fielder gloving the ball is a catch - it isn't.  I hope we can all agree on that point.  The question is this:  Is a fielder's foot, which is firmly on top of a temporary, flexible fence, but also on the ground "beyond the boundary line", in LBT or DBT?  There are elements to the comment that could be interpreted both ways.

[maven]

The question is this:  Is a fielder's foot, which is firmly on top of a temporary, flexible fence, but also on the ground "beyond the boundary line", in LBT or DBT?  There are elements to the comment that could be interpreted both ways.

 

I agree that's the question. By rule (FED 2-42-1), the fence is part of the field, and the rule does not make an exception for a "deformed" fence. For me, if the fielder's foot is on the fence, then he's in the field of play, and I don't care whether the other side of the fence is touching DBT (isn't part of the fence always touching DBT?).

 

Perhaps you're right that reasonable people can disagree on this interp. I doubt I'll ever see the play, so it's hard to get too bent out of shape about it. But I'll confess that when the defense makes a great play, my "baseball instinct" is to find a way to make it stand up. Baseball is a game of defense, and if the defense is playing the game right, in general they're entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

 

Home run? Meh -- a dime a dozen. A diving catch over the wall? Top play!

[grayhawk]

No disagreement from me on those points.  I'm sure not losing sleep over this one no matter how it's ruled.  It was a great play!

[mstaylor]

 

Nope still a catch in Fed and OBR. In NCAA, I believe one foot in dead ball makes it a no catch but I'm not sure. Live, stepping on the face of the fence is probably not going to be seen. So likely it is a catch in all three codes.

Not in Fed Michael. The case play Larry posted above spells it out. Agree that it would be difficult to call during live action, but they did in this case and got it right.

 

Nope, still a catch. The fence is part of the playing field.

[grayhawk]

 

 

Nope still a catch in Fed and OBR. In NCAA, I believe one foot in dead ball makes it a no catch but I'm not sure. Live, stepping on the face of the fence is probably not going to be seen. So likely it is a catch in all three codes.

Not in Fed Michael. The case play Larry posted above spells it out. Agree that it would be difficult to call during live action, but they did in this case and got it right.

 

Nope, still a catch. The fence is part of the playing field.

 

 

It appeared to me that you were saying one foot in DBT (with the other in the air) was still a catch in Fed, so I was responding to that.  I believe the casebook comment is not definitive for this case since on one hand, it says the fence is part of the playing field, but on the other it references a foot "beyond the boundary line."  As maven said, this will never happen to any of us, so it's just an academic exercise at this point.

[maven]

As maven said, this will never happen to any of us, so ....

I believe I expressed doubt that it would ever happen to me. I have no idea what you are likely to see.