Hidden Ball Trick Question

[MB_Ump]

Level is LL Majors so no balk rule. One of the teams has a play they run where after a walk the F2 will throw to F1 who throws to F3. F1 goes back and stands on the mound, but not on the rubber or straddling the rubber, so no problem. F3 will then tag runner if they step off of first or throw back to F1. I know if he is on or over the rubber then it is an illegal pitch (ball), but would it have any effect on a play on the BR? An illegal pitch does not create a dead ball that I can find, so I assume the out would stand and the new batter would start with a 1-0 count.I see nothing in the rule or case books on that situation. Am I missing something?

[BT_Blue]

Check your rule books. LL runs off of modified OBR which says F1 can not be on the dirt.

Also it would be a dead ball. Penalize the team that messed up.... not the team that is getting screwed.

[Richvee]

It's LL majors. Closed bases. Why would R1 be leaving the bag? 

[carolinablue]

It's LL majors. Closed bases. Why would R1 be leaving the bag? 

 

 

They will do that if the pitcher is off the rubber. You know, " Nanny, Nanny,Boo Boo....Pitchers got a big butt." and all that good stuff.

[BT_Blue]

Still go back to wondering if this is the pro rule or NFHS/NCAA ruling on positioning of F1 without the ball.

[mstaylor]

Check your rule books. LL runs off of modified OBR which says F1 can not be on the dirt.

 

Incorrect, LL rules say on or astride of the rubber, same as OBR. 

[MB_Ump]

It's LL majors. Closed bases. Why would R1 be leaving the bag?

 

 

They will do that if the pitcher is off the rubber. You know, " Nanny, Nanny,Boo Boo....Pitchers got a big butt." and all that good stuff.

Exactly- this is happening between the time the BR recieves the fourth ball and the next batter takes his position in the box. The rule I see that applies is 8.05(i) which says "It is an illegal pitch when the pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher's plate... " Since the only award is a ball, I can't see where you would need to have a dead ball, nor can I support that in the rule book.

[BT_Blue]

Check your rule books. LL runs off of modified OBR which says F1 can not be on the dirt.

Incorrect, LL rules say on or astride of the rubber, same as OBR.

So OBR is the same as FED and NCAA with on/astride? I thought it wasn't on the dirt circle?

[carolinablue]

Here you go.

 

 

5.09 - The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put

out, when -

 

© (MINOR/MAJOR BASEBALL) an illegal pitch is committed (See Rule 8.05 Penalty)

 

 

 

(MINOR/MAJOR BASEBALL) PENALTY: The pitch shall be called a ball. If a play follows the illegal pitch the

manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire of a decision to decline the illegal pitch penalty and accept

the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter hits the ball and

reaches first base safely, and if all base-runners advance at least one base on the action resulting from the batted

ball, the play proceeds without reference to the illegal pitch. NOTE: A batter hit by pitch shall be awarded first

base without reference to the illegal pitch.

 

So, I think this is right : Say the runner sees F3 with the ball and takes off for second before he can tag him and F3 air mails the ball into left field and the runner ends up a 3rd. You would leave him at third but if they tag him out a 1B, you have a dead ball. R1 remains at first and a ball added to the count.

[MB_Ump]

So I see it as a delayed dead ball if a play follows the illegal pitch, but the play would stand if it preceeds the infraction. Thank you for 5.09

[UmpJM]

BT-Blue,

 

OBR - "on or astride the rubber"

 

FED - "on or astride or within approximately five feet of the rubber"

 

NCAA - "any part of the dirt area (circle) of the mound"

 

JM

[midwayll]

Here you go.

 

 

5.09 - The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put

out, when -

 

© (MINOR/MAJOR BASEBALL) an illegal pitch is committed (See Rule 8.05 Penalty)

 

 

 

(MINOR/MAJOR BASEBALL) PENALTY: The pitch shall be called a ball. If a play follows the illegal pitch the

manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire of a decision to decline the illegal pitch penalty and accept

the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter hits the ball and

reaches first base safely, and if all base-runners advance at least one base on the action resulting from the batted

ball, the play proceeds without reference to the illegal pitch. NOTE: A batter hit by pitch shall be awarded first

base without reference to the illegal pitch.

 

So, I think this is right : Say the runner sees F3 with the ball and takes off for second before he can tag him and F3 air mails the ball into left field and the runner ends up a 3rd. You would leave him at third but if they tag him out a 1B, you have a dead ball. R1 remains at first and a ball added to the count.

 

I agree on your first scenario.  Leave the runner at 3B.

 

I disagree on your second scenario.  If the pitcher is not on or astride the rubber, there is no illegal pitch.  There is a dumb runner.  Out!

 

Now, if the pitcher is on or astride the rubber, then we have an illegal pitch and I would agree with your scenario.

[Mad Mike]

Here you go.

 

 

5.09 - The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put

out, when -

 

© (MINOR/MAJOR BASEBALL) an illegal pitch is committed (See Rule 8.05 Penalty)

 

 

 

(MINOR/MAJOR BASEBALL) PENALTY: The pitch shall be called a ball. If a play follows the illegal pitch the

manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire of a decision to decline the illegal pitch penalty and accept

the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter hits the ball and

reaches first base safely, and if all base-runners advance at least one base on the action resulting from the batted

ball, the play proceeds without reference to the illegal pitch. NOTE: A batter hit by pitch shall be awarded first

base without reference to the illegal pitch.

 

So, I think this is right : Say the runner sees F3 with the ball and takes off for second before he can tag him and F3 air mails the ball into left field and the runner ends up a 3rd. You would leave him at third but if they tag him out a 1B, you have a dead ball. R1 remains at first and a ball added to the count.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but if looking at the penalty for illegal pitches under OBR 8.05, with runners on base, once playing action stops, the first scenario you mention is correct-leave the runner at 3B; however, in the second scenario, the runner would be awarded 2B. I do not know of any instance in which you would keep the runner at 1B and grant a ball to the batter. Most certainly, there are no instances in which the offense gets two awards of a base and a ball to the batter.

[MB_Ump]

Look at OP-LL Majors so no balks, LL rules not (exactly) OBR

[mstaylor]

The illegal porch in closed base LL is whatever is a ball in 90 ft. The difference is there is an option on an IP, none on a balk. The traditional IP from 2.00 are the same.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[grayhawk]

So I see it as a delayed dead ball if a play follows the illegal pitch, but the play would stand if it preceeds the infraction. Thank you for 5.09

 

Not sure what you are saying here, but if F1 is on or astride the rubber, and F3 tags R1 off the base, the play would not stand.  An illegal pitch would be called, then time, and then a ball would be awarded to the batter's count.  R1 would stay at first base.

 

Maybe you are saying the F3's tag on R1 happened while F1 was not on or astride, the out happens and then F1 steps on or astride before he receives the ball?

[carolinablue]

 

So I see it as a delayed dead ball if a play follows the illegal pitch, but the play would stand if it preceeds the infraction. Thank you for 5.09

 

Not sure what you are saying here, but if F1 is on or astride the rubber, and F3 tags R1 off the base, the play would not stand.  An illegal pitch would be called, then time, and then a ball would be awarded to the batter's count.  R1 would stay at first base.

 

Maybe you are saying the F3's tag on R1 happened while F1 was not on or astride, the out happens and then F1 steps on or astride before he receives the ball?

 

 

 

 

 

Here you go.

 

 

5.09 - The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put

out, when -

 

© (MINOR/MAJOR BASEBALL) an illegal pitch is committed (See Rule 8.05 Penalty)

 

 

 

(MINOR/MAJOR BASEBALL) PENALTY: The pitch shall be called a ball. If a play follows the illegal pitch the

manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire of a decision to decline the illegal pitch penalty and accept

the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter hits the ball and

reaches first base safely, and if all base-runners advance at least one base on the action resulting from the batted

ball, the play proceeds without reference to the illegal pitch. NOTE: A batter hit by pitch shall be awarded first

base without reference to the illegal pitch.

 

So, I think this is right : Say the runner sees F3 with the ball and takes off for second before he can tag him and F3 air mails the ball into left field and the runner ends up a 3rd. You would leave him at third but if they tag him out a 1B, you have a dead ball. R1 remains at first and a ball added to the count.

 

I agree on your first scenario.  Leave the runner at 3B.

 

I disagree on your second scenario.  If the pitcher is not on or astride the rubber, there is no illegal pitch.  There is a dumb runner.  Out!

 

Now, if the pitcher is on or astride the rubber, then we have an illegal pitch and I would agree with your scenario.

 

 

That's what I meant. Tags the runner out a 1B with pitcher on or astride the rubber.

[mbrown2097]

If the runner comes off of the base (stupid) and gets tagged out due to a good/legal play by the defense, then bang him.  They'll stop playing stupid after that.   You're on the right track by trying to figure out what is legal though.  I guess my point is don't go looking to protect the offense who is behaving poorly. (na na na boo boo.)

[Aging_Arbiter]

The illegal porch in closed base LL is whatever is a ball in 90 ft. The difference is there is an option on an IP, none on a balk. The traditional IP from 2.00 are the same.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

The illegal porch?  Does that come from the "hidden building permit" trick?

[LMSANS]

 

The illegal porch in closed base LL is whatever is a ball in 90 ft. The difference is there is an option on an IP, none on a balk. The traditional IP from 2.00 are the same.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

The illegal porch?  Does that come from the "hidden building permit" trick?

 

I think @mstaylor is in auto-correct hell...

[mstaylor]

The illegal porch in closed base LL is whatever is a ball in 90 ft. The difference is there is an option on an IP, none on a balk. The traditional IP from 2.00 are the same.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

The illegal porch?  Does that come from the "hidden building permit" trick?

Damn phone fixing my words.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2