Dead ball clarification

[VolUmp]

Cool.  I'll keep looking as well.

I'll also try to find a casebook play ref.

[Richvee]

FED casebook 5.1.1 SITUATION L:

F7, while attempting to catch a fly ball near dead-ball area (a) makes the catch with one foot on the dead-ball area line and the other foot in dead-ball area, or (b) makes the catch with both feet in the dead-ball area, or © makes the catch with both feet in the playing area and then steps with both feet or falls into the dead-ball area.

RULING: In (b) and ©, the ball becomes dead. In (a) and ©, it is a legal catch, but in ©, F7 has left the playing area and if there are any runners on base, they each are awarded one base. In (b), it is not a catch. (8-3-3d)

[JaxRolo]

FED casebook 5.1.1 SITUATION L:

F7, while attempting to catch a fly ball near dead-ball area (a) makes the catch with one foot on the dead-ball area line and the other foot in dead-ball area, or b. makes the catch with both feet in the dead-ball area, or © makes the catch with both feet in the playing area and then steps with both feet or falls into the dead-ball area.

RULING: In b. and ©, the ball becomes dead. In (a) and ©, it is a legal catch, but in ©, F7 has left the playing area and if there are any runners on base, they each are awarded one base. In b. , it is not a catch. (8-3-3d)

There you have it! Good job!

[tldavis19]

Yeah I've got nothing more than a foul ball there. Same thing applies if he's trying to make a catch over the dugout wall. He can reach in and both feet stay on the ground, but if both feel leave the ground - foul ball! He has to be established in LBT.

[grayhawk]

Yeah I've got nothing more than a foul ball there. Same thing applies if he's trying to make a catch over the dugout wall. He can reach in and both feet stay on the ground, but if both feel leave the ground - foul ball! He has to be established in LBT.

 

I'm not sure which post you are referring to, but the bolded is, in general, incorrect for Fed.  He is established in LBT until he establishes himself in DBT.  You are not considered to be in DBT until both feet are on the ground in DBT.  If a fielder dives from LBT, catches the ball while airborne and then lands or falls with both feet in DBT, I have a catch and a one base award for all runners (unless the catch is the 3rd out).

[bam]

In FED you can straddle the DBL. Both feet have to be in DT.

I believe you are correct. A fielder only needs one foot on or over fair territory to make a catch.

The rule that wildfire is quoting does not apply in this case.

I will find the correct reference in the morning unless someone beats me to it.

 

What if one foot is in DBT and the other foot is not in contact with the ground? 

[noumpere]

Yeah I've got nothing more than a foul ball there. Same thing applies if he's trying to make a catch over the dugout wall. He can reach in and both feet stay on the ground, but if both feel leave the ground - foul ball! He has to be established in LBT.

 

I'm not sure which post you are referring to, but the bolded is, in general, incorrect for Fed.  He is established in LBT until he establishes himself in DBT.  You are not considered to be in DBT until both feet are on the ground in DBT.  If a fielder dives from LBT, catches the ball while airborne and then lands or falls with both feet in DBT, I have a catch and a one base award for all runners (unless the catch is the 3rd out).

Be careful with your own bolded part. lol.

 

If a fielder has one foot in DBT and the other foot in the air, he cannot catch the ball.

 

But, if he already has the ball and then steps with one foot only into DBT, the ball is still live.

 

That's why I said earlier there's a slight difference between catching the ball and carrying the ball into DBT.

 

(All that said your specific example is correct).

[tldavis19]

Yeah I've got nothing more than a foul ball there. Same thing applies if he's trying to make a catch over the dugout wall. He can reach in and both feet stay on the ground, but if both feel leave the ground - foul ball! He has to be established in LBT.

 

I'm not sure which post you are referring to, but the bolded is, in general, incorrect for Fed.  He is established in LBT until he establishes himself in DBT.  You are not considered to be in DBT until both feet are on the ground in DBT.  If a fielder dives from LBT, catches the ball while airborne and then lands or falls with both feet in DBT, I have a catch and a one base award for all runners (unless the catch is the 3rd out).

my bad, i meant to conclude that with "and falls into the dugout."

[grayhawk]

 

Yeah I've got nothing more than a foul ball there. Same thing applies if he's trying to make a catch over the dugout wall. He can reach in and both feet stay on the ground, but if both feel leave the ground - foul ball! He has to be established in LBT.

 

I'm not sure which post you are referring to, but the bolded is, in general, incorrect for Fed.  He is established in LBT until he establishes himself in DBT.  You are not considered to be in DBT until both feet are on the ground in DBT.  If a fielder dives from LBT, catches the ball while airborne and then lands or falls with both feet in DBT, I have a catch and a one base award for all runners (unless the catch is the 3rd out).

Be careful with your own bolded part. lol.

 

If a fielder has one foot in DBT and the other foot in the air, he cannot catch the ball.

 

But, if he already has the ball and then steps with one foot only into DBT, the ball is still live.

 

That's why I said earlier there's a slight difference between catching the ball and carrying the ball into DBT.

 

(All that said your specific example is correct).

 

Gonna need a cite for this.  5-1-1i says:

 

Ball becomes immediately dead when:

 

i. a fielder, after catching a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher, or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line (emphasis mine)

 

He can have one foot in DBT and one foot in the air and still make the catch.  The ball cannot become dead until the foot in the air comes down in DBT.  If he balances on one foot in DBT with the other in the air and then comes down with that foot in LBT, the ball remains live as per 5-1-1i.  How can you then not call it a catch?  He has to have both feet on the ground in DBT to nullify the catch.

[grayhawk]

 

Yeah I've got nothing more than a foul ball there. Same thing applies if he's trying to make a catch over the dugout wall. He can reach in and both feet stay on the ground, but if both feel leave the ground - foul ball! He has to be established in LBT.

 

I'm not sure which post you are referring to, but the bolded is, in general, incorrect for Fed.  He is established in LBT until he establishes himself in DBT.  You are not considered to be in DBT until both feet are on the ground in DBT.  If a fielder dives from LBT, catches the ball while airborne and then lands or falls with both feet in DBT, I have a catch and a one base award for all runners (unless the catch is the 3rd out).

my bad, i meant to conclude that with "and falls into the dugout."

 

It's still a catch.  See above.

[tldavis19]

I stand corrected. I'll be getting my money back for my Hooked on Phonics.... I'm an umpire, I have inherently bad eyesight.... list whatever excuse you wish for why i can't read something directly in front of my face.  

[noumpere]

 

 

Yeah I've got nothing more than a foul ball there. Same thing applies if he's trying to make a catch over the dugout wall. He can reach in and both feet stay on the ground, but if both feel leave the ground - foul ball! He has to be established in LBT.

 

I'm not sure which post you are referring to, but the bolded is, in general, incorrect for Fed.  He is established in LBT until he establishes himself in DBT.  You are not considered to be in DBT until both feet are on the ground in DBT.  If a fielder dives from LBT, catches the ball while airborne and then lands or falls with both feet in DBT, I have a catch and a one base award for all runners (unless the catch is the 3rd out).

Be careful with your own bolded part. lol.

 

If a fielder has one foot in DBT and the other foot in the air, he cannot catch the ball.

 

But, if he already has the ball and then steps with one foot only into DBT, the ball is still live.

 

That's why I said earlier there's a slight difference between catching the ball and carrying the ball into DBT.

 

(All that said your specific example is correct).

 

Gonna need a cite for this.  5-1-1i says:

 

Ball becomes immediately dead when:

 

i. a fielder, after catching a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher, or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line (emphasis mine)

 

He can have one foot in DBT and one foot in the air and still make the catch.  The ball cannot become dead until the foot in the air comes down in DBT.  If he balances on one foot in DBT with the other in the air and then comes down with that foot in LBT, the ball remains live as per 5-1-1i.  How can you then not call it a catch?  He has to have both feet on the ground in DBT to nullify the catch.

I agree with your first part where you quote 5-1-1i on the carry part.

 

For the catch part, see the case book under 2.9 Comment "(1) It is a catch when he has one or both feet touching the playing field or with both feet in flight" (and continue with (2) which is dealing with the carry part and confirms yuor rule and my statement)

[grayhawk]

I stand corrected on the catch/no catch, but we still have a rule inconsistency. So, one foot in DBT, one foot in the air. Ball is caught and the foot that was in the air comes down in LBT.

 

It's not a foul as per 2-16-1 (unless you stretch 2-16-1d)

It's not a catch as per 2.9 Comment (one or both feet not touching the playing field, nor both feet in flight prior to touching DBT)

It's not a dead ball as per 5-1-1i (both feet never were on the ground in DBT, nor did he fall into DBT)

[VolUmp]

SPEAKING OF FED ONLY

I agree with Greyhawk, that there is an inconsistency, or perhaps a rule inadequacy here. 

This very discussion monopolized our association's meeting yesterday, and it seems we missed a scenario or two ... or four ...

 

The way I count it, there are two feet on each (OK, most ... ) fielders.

There are three positions the feet can be in:  LBT, DBT, Airborne.

Given the 3rd possibility here (Airborne), there are two concluding conditions ... coming down in LBT or DBT.

Given the 3rd possibility here (Airborne), there are two preceding conditions ... came from LBT or DBT.

I think we're all gonna have to assume that if the foot is even partly ON THE LINE, regardless of whether "part" of the foot is also in DBT, it's considered to be in LBT.

I really didn't wanna spell them out, but I think with redundancies eliminated, there are 18 scenarios:

We evidently missed one or two ... or twelve ...

 

1)  Catch with both feet on LBT

     CATCH: One foot in makes it a catch

2)  Catch with both feet on DBT

     FOUL: Both feet out makes it a foul

3)  Catch with 1 foot on LBT, one foot on DBT

     CATCH: One foot in makes it a catch

 

4)  Catch with 1 foot on LBT, other airborne (regardless where it came from), and landing on LBT after the catch.

     CATCH: One foot in makes it a catch

5)  Catch with 1 foot on LBT, other airborne (regardless where it came from), and landing on DBT after the catch.

     CATCH: One foot in makes it a catch

 

6)  Catch with 1 foot on DBT, other airborne coming from LBT, and landing on LBT after the catch.

     FOUL:  "Foot" in flight ... not "feet."

7)  Catch with 1 foot on DBT, other airborne coming from DBT, and landing on LBT after the catch.

     FOUL:  "Foot" in flight ... not "feet."

8)  Catch with 1 foot on DBT, other airborne coming from LBT, and landing on DBT after the catch.

     FOUL:  "Foot" in flight ... not "feet."

9)  Catch with 1 foot on DBT, other airborne coming from DBT, and landing on DBT after the catch.

     FOUL:  "Foot" in flight ... not "feet."

 

10)  Catch with both feet airborne, both coming from DBT, and both landing on DBT after the catch.

     I SAY FOUL:  I don't believe a rule or case speaks clearly to this.

11)  Catch with both feet airborne, one coming from DBT, one coming from LBT, and both landing on DBT after the catch.

     I SAY CATCH:  I don't believe a rule or case speaks clearly to this.

12)  Catch with both feet airborne, both coming from LBT, and both landing on DBT after the catch.

     CATCH:  Both feet in flight.

 

 

13)  Catch with both feet airborne, both coming from DBT, and one landing on DBT and one on LBT after the catch.

     I SAY FOUL:  But I have no rule or interpretation.

14)  Catch with both feet airborne, one coming from DBT, one coming from LBT, and one landing on DBT and one on LBT after the catch.

     CATCH: One foot in makes it a catch; both feet in flight.

15)  Catch with both feet airborne, both coming from LBT, and one landing on DBT and one on LBT after the catch.

     CATCH: One foot in makes it a catch; both feet in flight.

 

16)  Catch with both feet airborne, both coming from DBT, and both landing on LBT after the catch.

     I SAY FOUL:  I don't believe a rule or case speaks clearly to this.

17)  Catch with both feet airborne, one coming from DBT, one coming from LBT, and both landing on LBT after the catch.

     CATCH: One foot in makes it a catch; both feet in flight.

18)  Catch with both feet airborne, both coming from LBT, and both landing on LBT after the catch.

     CATCH: One foot in makes it a catch; both feet in flight.

 

Just because I agree with some of the posters' remarks does not mean they gave a rule or case book interpretation ... it just means I think like they do.

If you make a bold statement that's not backed up by one of the FED books, you are merely invoking OBR 9.01c.  I'm fine with that, but say so!

[noumpere]

I stand corrected on the catch/no catch, but we still have a rule inconsistency. So, one foot in DBT, one foot in the air. Ball is caught and the foot that was in the air comes down in LBT.

 

It's not a foul as per 2-16-1 (unless you stretch 2-16-1d)

It's not a catch as per 2.9 Comment (one or both feet not touching the playing field, nor both feet in flight prior to touching DBT)

It's not a dead ball as per 5-1-1i (both feet never were on the ground in DBT, nor did he fall into DBT)

I don't know why you'd have to stretch anything.  This is a ball first hitting in dead ball terriotory (and not over the fence for a home run).

 

So, let's consider this play: RH F7.  Ball hit toward the dead ball line.  F7 straddles the line with left foot in play, right foot in DBT.  (a) F7 lifts the left foot and catches the ball; or, (b) F7 catches the ball with both feet on the ground, then lifts the left foot to step and throw. (the step also comes down in LBT).

 

In (a) it's foul.  In (b) it's a live play.

[Jocko]

I'm having problems wrapping my head around this. It's getting very deep. In your play, F7's left foot leaves LBT and comes down in LBT. He's not established DBT until BOTH feet are in DBT. His Left foot is theoretically over LBT (unless we're watching the Matrix) and never touches DBT. What is it about this that is eluding me?

[noumpere]

I'm having problems wrapping my head around this. It's getting very deep. In your play, F7's left foot leaves LBT and comes down in LBT. He's not established DBT until BOTH feet are in DBT. His Left foot is theoretically over LBT (unless we're watching the Matrix) and never touches DBT. What is it about this that is eluding me?

Yes it can be confusing.  There are two slightly different rules for similar situations.  One for "being legal to make a catch" and one for "the ball becoming dead when it's carried out of play."  The field is "slightly bigger" in the latter case than in the former.

 

To catch the ball, you need to have at least one foot touching LBT, or have both feet in the air and have jumped from LBT.  If one foot is in DBT and the other is in the air, it's not a catch.

 

You haven't carried the ball out of play until both feet touch DBT.

 

So in my play, at one point under both scenarios, the player was standing with one foot in DBT and the other foot in the air.  The player is considered to be out of play when it comes to catching the ball (no catch) but in play when it comes to carrying the ball (he hasn't carried it out of play).

[NFUA_44]

So in my play, at one point under both scenarios, the player was standing with one foot in DBT and

the other foot in the air.  The player is considered to be out of play

when it comes to catching the ball (no catch) but in play when it comes

to carrying the ball (he hasn't carried it out of play).

So if the airborne foot then lands in LBT, it becomes a catch, and if he should then step with that same foot in DBT it becomes a catch that is then dead?  Am I getting that right?  At some point the airborne foot has to come down somewhere, so it's not a catch.....yet.

 

Am I getting that straight, cause I'm really confused..............

[noumpere]

So in my play, at one point under both scenarios, the player was standing with one foot in DBT and

the other foot in the air.  The player is considered to be out of play

when it comes to catching the ball (no catch) but in play when it comes

to carrying the ball (he hasn't carried it out of play).

So if the airborne foot then lands in LBT, it becomes a catch, and if he should then step with that same foot in DBT it becomes a catch that is then dead?  Am I getting that right?  At some point the airborne foot has to come down somewhere, so it's not a catch.....yet.

 

Am I getting that straight, cause I'm really confused..............

No that's not right.  The ball is dead (foul) as soon as the fly is touched with one foot in DBT and the other in the air.  What happens after that (for example the foot landing in LBT) doesnt matter.

[NFUA_44]

Ok, that makes perfect sense. I'm reading to much into it. The whole foot in the air thing throwing me off. Thanks noumpere!

[JaxRolo]

I found one! A dead Ball!

 

[Jocko]

Someone needs to rename this thread "Dead ball for dummies"

I feel pretty dumb