You Make the Call #2

[Replacematt]

 

 

Because FED has you call a strike as a penalty, the batter was out on the 3rd strike you called as a penalty.  The pitch matters not, but the ball is live, so other runners can advance.

 Alex, Though the batter received his 3rd strike on the "penalty strike", the conditions for him being called out have not been met. The ball remains in play and the batter has become a (batter-)runner. (Assuming, of course, that 1B is unoccupied or there are 2 outs.) I concur with noumpere. JM :notworthy:

 

Back to this one por favor.  Once you call the 3rd strike on the batter, isn't any oncoming pitch after that a "4th strike" if you will?  Not seeing why the batter would be allowed to advance on a pitch that happens AFTER the 3rd strike has already been called separately.  Thanks for the help.

 

He's not. JM is incorrect on this one...

 

Let's add a twist--batter gets a third penalty strike, but somehow gets back in and belts the ball for a single. Who here would let that play stand?

[Jocko]

Because FED has you call a strike as a penalty, the batter was out on the 3rd strike you called as a penalty. The pitch matters not, but the ball is live, so other runners can advance.

Alex, Though the batter received his 3rd strike on the "penalty strike", the conditions for him being called out have not been met. The ball remains in play and the batter has become a (batter-)runner. (Assuming, of course, that 1B is unoccupied or there are 2 outs.) I concur with noumpere. JM :notworthy: Back to this one por favor. Once you call the 3rd strike on the batter, isn't any oncoming pitch after that a "4th strike" if you will? Not seeing why the batter would be allowed to advance on a pitch that happens AFTER the 3rd strike has already been called separately. Thanks for the help.let's take it back to fundamentals and step by step.

Batter steps out as F1 starts delivery. HP calls the (now titled) "penalty strike." F1 delivers the ball, and it sails. There's the situation we're discussing.

Fundamental #1) We all agree the ball is live, true? The "penalty strike" is neither a dead ball or a delayed dead ball. It's just a strike.

Fundamental #2) Since the criteria for D3K exists, the batter has been issued a K, but not called out. THAT criteria has yet to be met. As such, he becomes a BR the instant the pitch touches the ground, and is entitled to run to 1B, the same as any other strikeout.

Fundamental #3) The "4th" strike pitch is not a new pitch. TOP started when F1 committed to the plate. The pitch doesn't end until the ball is hit (fair or foul), comes to rest, or is caught by F2. So even though the pitch happened after the 3rd strike happened, it's still the same pitch.

The ball is alive, and runners may advance at their own peril (jeopardy)

Concerning the ball out of play:

Same rules apply as if batter Kd swinging. If he whiffed at K3, and F2 doesn't handle the rock and boots it OOP, what would you call? All runners advance 1 base from TOP, correct? Same-Same.

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Now, the question is mechanics. At what point do you verbal the "penalty strike?" This is the tricky part. The batter can theoretically step out and back in during the pitch. Does he lose his right to swing? No, he may still attempt to hit the ball, because there are no other penalties associated with this rule. How you handle it is the tricky part.

[Replacematt]

let's take it back to fundamentals and step by step.

Batter steps out as F1 starts delivery. HP calls the (now titled) "penalty strike." F1 delivers the ball, and it sails. There's the situation we're discussing.

Fundamental #1) We all agree the ball is live, true? The "penalty strike" is neither a dead ball or a delayed dead ball. It's just a strike.

Agree.

Fundamental #2) Since the criteria for D3K exists, the batter has been issued a K, but not called out. THAT criteria has yet to be met.

Disagree. The batter was out the instant the penalty strike was called for strike 3.

[Jocko]

let's take it back to fundamentals and step by step.Batter steps out as F1 starts delivery. HP calls the (now titled) "penalty strike." F1 delivers the ball, and it sails. There's the situation we're discussing.Fundamental #1) We all agree the ball is live, true? The "penalty strike" is neither a dead ball or a delayed dead ball. It's just a strike.

Agree.

Fundamental #2) Since the criteria for D3K exists, the batter has been issued a K, but not called out. THAT criteria has yet to be met.

Disagree. The batter was out the instant the penalty strike was called for strike 3.

that's only possible if there's a dead ball. There is no stipulation as to when the penalized batter loses his right to advance on D3K. Since it's not there, it doesn't exist. There is no differentiation between a "penalty" strike and a looking or swinging strike. It's just a strike.

[Replacematt]

let's take it back to fundamentals and step by step.Batter steps out as F1 starts delivery. HP calls the (now titled) "penalty strike." F1 delivers the ball, and it sails. There's the situation we're discussing.Fundamental #1) We all agree the ball is live, true? The "penalty strike" is neither a dead ball or a delayed dead ball. It's just a strike.

Agree.

 

Fundamental #2) Since the criteria for D3K exists, the batter has been issued a K, but not called out. THAT criteria has yet to be met.

Disagree. The batter was out the instant the penalty strike was called for strike 3.

that's only possible if there's a dead ball. There is no stipulation as to when the penalized batter loses his right to advance on D3K. Since it's not there, it doesn't exist. There is no differentiation between a "penalty" strike and a looking or swinging strike. It's just a strike.

 

No, the batter is out regardless if the ball is live or dead. There was no pitch to be caught for strike 3, therefore all the criteria have been met. The penalty strike is separate from the pitch.

[Jocko]

Re-read the rule. Where does it say that? It doesn't. Ergo, there is no such animal.

Gentlemen, situational management and preventive officiating will stop this garbage before it starts.

[Birdieseeker]

I agree with Matt. The batter is out on the penalty strike. The ball remains alive and runners other than the BR can advance

[Replacematt]

Wow, quotes are messing up again...

 

I have re-read the rule, many times. Look at the criteria at what point a batter is declared out. I posed a question above--would you let the batter hit the ball in the situation in which a penalty strike is strike three?

[Jocko]

I'll be more than willing to recant IF you can give rule or case to back it up. The gauntlet has been thrown down.

[JaxRolo]

I admit that I don't know the answer but what Jocko is saying makes more sense.

[Replacematt]

That's because I conflated this one with a contemporaneous discussion on another board...

 

Doh!

[VolUmp]

FED Question ... suppose I call a "penalty" strike for the batter refusing to get in the box when told to do so.  That is always accompanied by a "time" call ... so if the pitcher delivers a pitch a split second before I call time, my call of "time" kills the play, am I correct?

[Jocko]

FED Question ... suppose I call a "penalty" strike for the batter refusing to get in the box when told to do so.  That is always accompanied by a "time" call ... so if the pitcher delivers a pitch a

Wow, quotes are messing up again... I have re-read the rule, many times. Look at the criteria at what point a batter is declared out. I posed a question above--would you let the batter hit the ball in the situation in which a penalty strike is strike three?

if the batter hits the ball in this situation, then I have royally screwed the pooch! My timing was all wrong and I have injected myself into the game. Situational management and timing.

what's up with the quotes?

[ring-em-up12]

Is verbal int. a dead ball or can runners advance in Fed rules?

[Replacematt]

what's up with the quotes?

 

I've been going into BBCode to do my replies, so that I can proofread the number of opening and closing quotes.

[Replacematt]

Is verbal int. a dead ball or can runners advance in Fed rules?

 

Dead. On offensive interference with a defensive player, the ball is always dead.

[Jocko]

FED Question ... suppose I call a "penalty" strike for the batter refusing to get in the box when told to do so.  That is always accompanied by a "time" call ... so if the pitcher delivers a pitch a split second before I call time, my call of "time" kills the play, am I correct?

NEVER should "Time" be called. Reference NFHS 7-3-1 Penalty.

[basejester]

"If there are two outs or if no runner occupies first base, the batter is not out unless the third strike is caught."

Umpire: That's a strike. Batter delayed the game.

Catcher: Huh?

Catcher: I didn't catch that. What?

Umpire: Hmmm, I guess he can advance now.

I don't think you can catch a declared strike. Out makes sense to me. The batter making contact (fair or foul) can't negate the penalty, so I don't think a catch can logically be a requirement.

[noumpere]

Wow, quotes are messing up again...

 

I have re-read the rule, many times. Look at the criteria at what point a batter is declared out. I posed a question above--would you let the batter hit the ball in the situation in which a penalty strike is strike three?

Yes I would because the rule says to call the pitch a strike no matter where it is.  that just means the strike zone is 17777 inches wide instead of 17 inches wide.  So you still cant call it a strike until it passes the plate.  In this play its just a pitch that the batter hit just like any other.

[Jimurray]

TASO test question: Bottom of the 7th and 2 outs. Home team trails 5-4. Bases loaded. B4 at bat with 2-1 count. As F1 winds-up B4 steps out of the box with both feet. The PU has not called time. F1 delivers the pitch which bounces and is blocked by F2. By rule the pitch is called a strike, and a second strike is called because in the umpire's judgement B4 delayed the game. B4 is out and the game is over. True or false.

[AZump78]

So glad they choose such realistic questions.

[Replacematt]

TASO test question: Bottom of the 7th and 2 outs. Home team trails 5-4. Bases loaded. B4 at bat with 2-1 count. As F1 winds-up B4 steps out of the box with both feet. The PU has not called time. F1 delivers the pitch which bounces and is blocked by F2. By rule the pitch is called a strike, and a second strike is called because in the umpire's judgement B4 delayed the game. B4 is out and the game is over. True or false.

 

This is the one with which I had conflated the OP.

 

The answer is true, because the pitch was the second strike, and the penalty strike was the third.

 

Call both strikes in the real world and see how long you can stay doing freshman games.

[Fittske24]

TASO test question: Bottom of the 7th and 2 outs. Home team trails 5-4. Bases loaded. B4 at bat with 2-1 count. As F1 winds-up B4 steps out of the box with both feet. The PU has not called time. F1 delivers the pitch which bounces and is blocked by F2. By rule the pitch is called a strike, and a second strike is called because in the umpire's judgement B4 delayed the game. B4 is out and the game is over. True or false.

 

Ok...is this a day or night game???

[johnnyg08]

 

Ok...is this a day or night game???

 

 

Night game.  Last year's question was specifically a day game.

[Jimurray]

TASO test question: Bottom of the 7th and 2 outs. Home team trails 5-4. Bases loaded. B4 at bat with 2-1 count. As F1 winds-up B4 steps out of the box with both feet. The PU has not called time. F1 delivers the pitch which bounces and is blocked by F2. By rule the pitch is called a strike, and a second strike is called because in the umpire's judgement B4 delayed the game. B4 is out and the game is over. True or false.

 

This is the one with which I had conflated the OP.

 

The answer is true, because the pitch was the second strike, and the penalty strike was the third.

 

Call both strikes in the real world and see how long you can stay doing freshman games.

 

I believe they modified the pertaining caseplays this year. A batter that steps out with both feet with a pitch thrown gets the pitch called as a strike but the penalty strike is only added if the umpire believes the batter delayed the game. So you can hang your hat on no delay and just call the one strike.