Signals at the plate

[SoCal Lurker]

I know the plate play that led tot he Socia ejection is being talked about in the pro section, but this isn't really about the play, per se.

On the play, there was a tag attempt up the base line a few feet, PU signaled safe, runner ran back to touch the plate, and the PU signaled safe a second time.

So I was wondering about the mechanics. I couldn't tell from the video I saw if the runner had or had not missed the plate, but I was presuming that the second safe signal meant that the runner had missed the plate the first time. I recall reading on here about the mechanics on missed plate plays and how they are different, but can't quite recall -- I thought there were times the PU would not make a signal because the runner didn't touch the plate -- is that on a force play? (My son asked me about it, and it's a bit beyond me . . .)

thx

[noumpere]

Didnt see the play but if theres a tag at the plate and the runner misses the plate then the umpire shouldnt of signalled anything. Now maybe the tag was far enough away from the plate that the umpire didnt think that mechanic should of been used or maybe he just used the wrong mechanic.

[mjr_2013]

When I saw it, I interpreted the first safe to be the literal safe (no fielders tag + touch of home), and the second safe to be more of a second telling to both the runner trying to retouch and the catcher trying to tag that he was safe the first time and that the second attempts didn't matter.

[mstaylor]

I was always taught a tag attempt gets a call whether the base is touched or not. Now if the attempt and retouch/retag is almost immediate then do it once. Recently it has been argued not to safe the first attempt, I disagree but mechanics change. In the OP I think mjr is correct, it is a safe call with an affirmation of the original call.

[umpire_scott]

I was always taught a tag attempt gets a call whether the base is touched or not. Now if the attempt and retouch/retag is almost immediate then do it once. Recently it has been argued not to safe the first attempt, I disagree but mechanics change. In the OP I think mjr is correct, it is a safe call with an affirmation of the original call.

I would presume safe means safe, so unless they touch the base no call would be made. What about a verbal "no tag"?

[Replacematt]

On a play at home where the tag is missed or tag of the plate is late, and the runner has missed home plate-there should be no call nor signal.

On a play at any other base where the tag is missed or tag of the plate is late, and the runner has missed, the call and signal are "safe."

On any missed tag attempt not in the vicinity of a base, the call is "no tag" with a signal identical to "safe."

[umpire_scott]

On a play at home where the tag is missed or tag of the plate is late, and the runner has missed home plate-there should be no call nor signal.

On a play at any other base where the tag is missed or tag of the plate is late, and the runner has missed, the call and signal are "safe."

On any missed tag attempt not in the vicinity of a base, the call is "no tag" with a signal identical to "safe."

So you are saying if a tag is attempted on a runner stealing second, and the fielder misses the tag but the runner slides around the base and misses it you should call him safe? That seems odd to me.

[Replacematt]

Yes. To make no call would be an indication of missing the base.

At home (and this is where it does get a bit contradictory,) making a call of safe would indicate that the runner is no longer in jeopardy of being put out, and put him at a disadvantage. Making no call, at least, equally informs both teams.

[renegadewolf]

A couple years ago I had a close play at home during a 16-19y/o game the runner dove in towards home, catcher made a sweeping tag attempt, dirt flew, people started chattering looking for the call, and there was me still standing 3BLX locked in doing nothing. Runner looked at me, catcher looked at me, people in the crowd kind of muttering in confusion, I was standing there looking at the runner and the catcher, this went on for about 10 seconds. I see the light go on in the catchers eyes and he tag the runner at which point I bang him out. No tag was made initially so no out yet, the runner totally missed home plate, and therefor not safe yet. lots to see, but nothing to call yet.

[umpire_scott]

Yes. To make no call would be an indication of missing the base.

At home (and this is where it does get a bit contradictory,) making a call of safe would indicate that the runner is no longer in jeopardy of being put out, and put him at a disadvantage. Making no call, at least, equally informs both teams.

So if I understand you correctly you are saying that by making no call at second I'm informing the defense that the runner has not yet touched the base and thus giving them the indication that they can apply the tag still? But by that same token if I call "safe" on a runner where the tag was missed, but the runner also missed the tag am I not giving an advantage to the offense because the defense may not try and apply a tag because the runner has already been declared safe?

I've just never heard of calling a runner safe that never got to the bag. As I've said I've verbally yelled "no tag", but never declared safe until I see that he has touched the bag, at any base.

[SoCal Lurker]

I've just never heard of calling a runner safe that never got to the bag. As I've said I've verbally yelled "no tag", but never declared safe until I see that he has touched the bag, at any base.

I'm not an ump, I'm a lurking daddy coach learning the rules. But from a lot of lurking, I've learned quite a bit about mechanics, rules interps, and why they are done the way they are. If you've "never heard of" this, it is a pretty clear indication that you do not have the same level of training and experience of many of the posters on this board. You might consider that there is a lot of expereince here and that you are going to get more out of learning from other posters than you are from telling people what you do yourself. Just something to consider.

[umpire_scott]

I've just never heard of calling a runner safe that never got to the bag. As I've said I've verbally yelled "no tag", but never declared safe until I see that he has touched the bag, at any base.

I'm not an ump, I'm a lurking daddy coach learning the rules. But from a lot of lurking, I've learned quite a bit about mechanics, rules interps, and why they are done the way they are. If you've "never heard of" this, it is a pretty clear indication that you do not have the same level of training and experience of many of the posters on this board. You might consider that there is a lot of expereince here and that you are going to get more out of learning from other posters than you are from telling people what you do yourself. Just something to consider.

Only one umpire, Matt, has said he does this. That could easily indicate it's something that is done in his region or a mechanic taught at his association.

[Richvee]

Yes. To make no call would be an indication of missing the base.

At home (and this is where it does get a bit contradictory,) making a call of safe would indicate that the runner is no longer in jeopardy of being put out, and put him at a disadvantage. Making no call, at least, equally informs both teams.

I've just never heard of calling a runner safe that never got to the bag. As I've said I've verbally yelled "no tag", but never declared safe until I see that he has touched the bag, at any base.

First off. In these examples the runners have past the base. Big difference between passing the base and never getting to the base.

Second. Consider this....

MLBUM 2010

34. Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings

(12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first

base but misses the bag.

Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner

safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging

the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base

before the runner returns to first base the batter-runner would be declared

out. Note also Official Baseball Rule 7.08(k) Comment.

[zm1283]

I've just never heard of calling a runner safe that never got to the bag. As I've said I've verbally yelled "no tag", but never declared safe until I see that he has touched the bag, at any base.

I'm not an ump, I'm a lurking daddy coach learning the rules. But from a lot of lurking, I've learned quite a bit about mechanics, rules interps, and why they are done the way they are. If you've "never heard of" this, it is a pretty clear indication that you do not have the same level of training and experience of many of the posters on this board. You might consider that there is a lot of expereince here and that you are going to get more out of learning from other posters than you are from telling people what you do yourself. Just something to consider.

Only one umpire, Matt, has said he does this. That could easily indicate it's something that is done in his region or a mechanic taught at his association.

If a runner stealing second is not tagged by the fielder and slides past the base, I give a safe mechanic like Matt, then if the fielder goes to tag him, give the "off the base" mechanic (Usually with one hand), and signal the out. (Or safe if he gets back to the base) You are telling everyone that you saw the initial tag attempt and that he wasn't tagged. It's up to the defense to figure out that he overslid the base and that they need to go tag him.

[umpire_scott]

I learned something new today. I never knew that you would signal "safe" to indicate a missed tag. Clearly the quoted rules say to do this.

[umpire_scott]

I was just always trained to not make a safe or out call right away. Let the play happen and then make your call to avoid calling safe then out or out then safe. I guess I interpreted this to mean in all circumstances.

[noumpere]

I was just always trained to not make a safe or out call right away. Let the play happen and then make your call to avoid calling safe then out or out then safe. I guess I interpreted this to mean in all circumstances.

That's true if the timing is such that it can be viewed as two separate plays but most of the time if you have good timing the defense will be chasing after the runner who is off the bag.

And, that's why you can't make the safe call at home -- the defense can't (legally) tag a runner who touched home but is now "off the bag."

[JaxRolo]

I was just always trained to not make a safe or out call right away. Let the play happen and then make your call to avoid calling safe then out or out then safe. I guess I interpreted this to mean in all circumstances.

That's true if the timing is such that it can be viewed as two separate plays but most of the time if you have good timing the defense will be chasing after the runner who is off the bag.

And, that's why you can't make the safe call at home -- the defense can't (legally) tag a runner who touched home but is now "off the bag."

Good post!

[umpire_scott]

So just playing devil's advocate for a moment how would you handle the following:

Runner stealing third; throw pulls third baseman off the bag and he attempts swipe tag of runner. Runner knowing he's dead on a good throw slides to the outside to avoid the tag and attempt to grab bag with hand but misses. Or for that matter he slides too early and never gets to the bag. Let's assume that he's not outside the baseline so that is not a potential call.

1. Would you make the safe call on the missed tag, even though the runner missed the bag? The case play was at first base which to me is a little different because you are entitled to overrun first.

2. I could see the DC coming out and arguing that his third baseman did not attempt a second tag, because he heard safe called and thus assumed he had got to the bag.

[UmpTTS43]

On steal plays on the bases, you do not make a call until the runner is actually out or until continous action ends and the runner is safe. Double calls on these plays are problematic.

[Jocko]

Yes. To make no call would be an indication of missing the base.

At home (and this is where it does get a bit contradictory,) making a call of safe would indicate that the runner is no longer in jeopardy of being put out, and put him at a disadvantage. Making no call, at least, equally informs both teams.

I've just never heard of calling a runner safe that never got to the bag. As I've said I've verbally yelled "no tag", but never declared safe until I see that he has touched the bag, at any base.

First off. In these examples the runners have past the base. Big difference between passing the base and never getting to the base.

Second. Consider this....

MLBUM 2010

34. Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings

(12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first

base but misses the bag.

Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner

safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging

the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base

before the runner returns to first base the batter-runner would be declared

out. Note also Official Baseball Rule 7.08(k) Comment.

Important to note that once BR misses 1b, the "force" is off and it becomes an appeal. The appeal can be made by tagging the BR, or by INTENTIONALLY appealing by touching the bag. There can be no "Accidental" appeals in this sitch. Just because he caught the ball while touching the bag doesn't qualify as PROPER appeal.

*EDIT* The appropriate mechanic is to give the safe sign, even though BR missed 1B. Then, if 1B verbally appeals or tags BR, you give the out mechanic and verbal, probably followed by an explanation.

[noumpere]

2. I could see the DC coming out and arguing that his third baseman did not attempt a second tag, because he heard safe called and thus assumed he had got to the bag.

Even if he did get to the bag coach, your player could of tagged him when he was off the bag.

I'll point out that in 95% of the plays its only one play so only one call is needed. The other 5% you need to umpire and it deciding which play is in the other 5% that makes this so fun and so much of a challenge.

[catsbackr]

I've just never heard of calling a runner safe that never got to the bag. As I've said I've verbally yelled "no tag", but never declared safe until I see that he has touched the bag, at any base.

I'm not an ump, I'm a lurking daddy coach learning the rules. But from a lot of lurking, I've learned quite a bit about mechanics, rules interps, and why they are done the way they are. If you've "never heard of" this, it is a pretty clear indication that you do not have the same level of training and experience of many of the posters on this board. You might consider that there is a lot of expereince here and that you are going to get more out of learning from other posters than you are from telling people what you do yourself. Just something to consider.

Only one umpire, Matt, has said he does this. That could easily indicate it's something that is done in his region or a mechanic taught at his association.

If a runner stealing second is not tagged by the fielder and slides past the base, I give a safe mechanic like Matt, then if the fielder goes to tag him, give the "off the base" mechanic (Usually with one hand), and signal the out. (Or safe if he gets back to the base) You are telling everyone that you saw the initial tag attempt and that he wasn't tagged. It's up to the defense to figure out that he overslid the base and that they need to go tag him.

I think you are misusing this mechanic. Generally used for signaling a throw on a force that pulls fielder off of the bag. I've never seen it used as you described.

[zm1283]

I think you are misusing this mechanic. Generally used for signaling a throw on a force that pulls fielder off of the bag. I've never seen it used as you described.

It's not taught, but I have seen it done from the college level up to MLB. Not everyone does it and it's not required by anyone that I know of.

I don't use the regular "off the base" mechanic like at first when F3 is pulled off. Just one hand and more subtle.

[Jocko]

I think you are misusing this mechanic. Generally used for signaling a throw on a force that pulls fielder off of the bag. I've never seen it used as you described.

It's not taught, but I have seen it done from the college level up to MLB. Not everyone does it and it's not required by anyone that I know of.

I don't use the regular "off the base" mechanic like at first when F3 is pulled off. Just one hand and more subtle.

why not use the same mech as everyone else?