Warnings on balks

[Paperipper17]

I have no problem with this (well, I do, but I understand the theory) in fall ball, at levels where kids are just learning to pitch. But increasingly, I've been seeing at higher and higher ages. Last week I had a 17U game and after the plate meeting the home HC said, "By the way, we do one warning per pitcher on balks." I said, "No, we're straight up at this level." I may have sounded like an jerk, but come on. At 15-17 years old, you should know how not to balk. I was managing runners at ten years old. I'll give these kids the benefit of the doubt and say 11. So in four years, you couldn't train out the balks?

IMO, a balk is a balk. I think even at the youngest age it should be straight up. But certainly by 12 years old.

FWIW, I called two that game, my BU called two, and we called one simultaneously. Total: two didn't come set, one lefty tried a first-to-third move (the simultaneous one), and two guys came set, then turned to check a runner. Those are coaching balks.

Any other views or opinions on balk warnings? How do you guys handle this?

[semper_fi_72]

It is Fall Ball and if the coaches want a warning issued, that is what they get.

Remember, regardless of the age group, Fall Ball generally means "Instructional". You may not always have the best players playing.

In Fall Ball besides Umpiring you are there to assist in instruction of the players.

A such it should remain instructional and non-competitive.

As far as who called what Balk or calling it simultaneously, remember to always echo a partners Balk Call.

[mstaylor]

If I am working a 13 or younger Fall ball then I will warn. 14 and above, no frickin' way am I warning. I had a coach ask me one day where was the warning. I asked him didn't see me point first before I said balk?

My point has always been what good does warning a pitcher? There are like 21 balks, do you warn each one? If not what good does it do to warn a nonstop and then balk on an illegal feint?

[semper_fi_72]

If I am working a 13 or younger Fall ball then I will warn. 14 and above, no frickin' way am I warning. I had a coach ask me one day where was the warning. I asked him didn't see me point first before I said balk?

My point has always been what good does warning a pitcher? There are like 21 balks, do you warn each one? If not what good does it do to warn a nonstop and then balk on an illegal feint?

I do not see what the problem with warnings are, if the ground rules stipulate that is what is to be done for the league or game.

Remember, we are there to umpire the game according to the rules, which include any special or ground rules for that game. Not by what we believe is right or wrong or what we want to do.

They are the customer and we are a service provider.

If it calls rules for the game call for a warning to be issued. Issue a warning on the first one and first one only for that pitcher.

[Thunderheads]

whatever makes the coaches happy, ...that's my motto ....if they want warnings, then so be it.

In that situation though, .... it's a dead ball (i.e.; fed) so you can 'instruct' ....

You call it the same, ...then 'time', then make sure everyone understands why. 99.999% of the time, the pitcher nods his head like, yeah yeah, I know, and the DC will come out and talk to his pitcher for a second.

[noumpere]

whatever makes the coaches happy, ...that's my motto ....if they want warnings, then so be it.

I'd change that to "whatever makes the league happy."

Sometimes, coaches want to implement a rule that's not in the league rules (or ignore one that is). I don't allow that.

And, I agree that it's generally a bad idea for a league to have warnings on balks. When I was on the local Board, I voted against it. But, if a league puts it in, then I would enforce it as they want if I worked that league.

[Dragon29]

As far as who called what Balk or calling it simultaneously, remember to always echo a partners Balk Call.

This is a new one on me.

I echo 'Time' & 'Foul' when appropriate (sometimes only non-verbally) but I've never been trained to echo my partner's 'Balk.'

What's the logic behind that? I'm not challenging it so much as asking for an explanation. I mean, if my partner calls a balk (let's assume I either didn't see it or didn't think it was a balk) then I echo it, what's to stop the DM from asking me about it? Coming back with, "My partner called it; you need to go speak w/him." seems kind of weak to me.

To me, echoing a partner's balk is akin to echoing 'Out' & 'Safe' - ???

Anyone?

[mstaylor]

The purpose of youth sports is to teach players how to play baseball. What good does it do to warn on a balk. You can warn until you are blue in the face and nothing changes. You say balk and advance runners, they figure it out. It is not my fault that the coaches are too lazy to teach proper mechanics. I managed a 13/14 Pony team for a couple of years and I told the umpires that if my guys balk, call it. I have taught them the proper way but a couple of guys want to hardheaded. Balk the knucklehead and he will see I'm not an idiot.

[UmpTTS43]

JEAPU teaches the echo call. Echoing a balk call gives the impression that it is a no brainer call. However, school also teaches that ...

... once the balk call is made and echoed, the calling umpire give an indication of what the call is. "That's a no stop" "Start and stop", etc. That way your partner who echoed you knows what you have.

... if the DM comes out, the calling ump brings it to the DM's attention that that was his call and not his partners and that any discussion should be addressed to him.

Echoing a call just for the sake of it can lead to problems if the above guidelines are not followed. If the BU makes a balk call and the PU echos it but did not see the balk, and the DM comes to the PU for an explanation, crew credibility can be lost when there is no explanation, differing explanations, or skirting the issue and sending the DM to the other ump.

In the real world application, don't echo the call unless you have a balk or the above has been pregamed and the crew is on the same page.

[AZ ump]

By the way, we do one warning per pitcher on balks

.

If a coach tells me that, I'd immediately say "ok, consider yourself warned. If your pitchers balk, I'm calling it".

Seriously. I know fall ball and younger ages are just learning, and some games are meant to be more instructional than competitive, BUT I find that the players learn a lot better when you enforce something and they are penalized for it.

I once got some criticism for calling a catcher's balk on a pitchout with a runner on 3rd base that resulted in a walkoff win. A few people thought I should have warned the catcher (it was the 2nd pitch - he never got back into the box after returning the ball to the pitcher). I figure that by calling it and costing his team a win, he (and his coach and teammates) will never forget that rule. If I had whispered to him to get back in the box, he might make that mistake later when the stakes are higher.

[spiritumpa]

How about we WARN the batter that with two strikes--the next one he is out!!!

we are umpires not coaches

[semper_fi_72]

How about we WARN the batter that with two strikes--the next one he is out!!!

we are umpires not coaches

How about your a Umpire and therefore responsible to work the game under the Rules provided to you by the League. It is not your place to say what rule you will or will not enforce. Whether you agree with that rule or not.

So if you don't want to umpire within the rules given to you, don't umpire for a League that wants a Warning on the first Balk.

Otherwise call the game by the rules your customer (The League) directs.

If you do anything else, don't call yourself a Umpire.

:D

[Paperipper17]

There is no league rule on balk warnings, to my knowledge, at any park at which I call. Generally what happens in fall ball is the coaches will decide if they want a warning or if they want us to call it "straight up." I ask any age group 13U and below. 14U and up, I've never had a coach ask for it. So in this game, I didn't. This 17U game was the first game I've called above 13U where I was asked (or told about) a warning. I've done other 17U games at this park and they've been fine with calling it straight. I took his "we" to mean his team, not the league (of course, I could be wrong there). I agree that it's instructional, and if it were a league rule I'd have a problem with it but no problem enforcing it and in no way would I turn down their games over it. Semper fi is right, that's what we're paid for. But I also agree with Mike that the best way to learn is to call it. IMO, calling a warning on a balk is the equivalent of giving the runner a warning if he gets picked off.

[mw94]

.

If a coach tells me that, I'd immediately say "ok, consider yourself warned. If your pitchers balk, I'm calling it".

Seriously. I know fall ball and younger ages are just learning, and some games are meant to be more instructional than competitive, BUT I find that the players learn a lot better when you enforce something and they are penalized for it.

I once got some criticism for calling a catcher's balk on a pitchout with a runner on 3rd base that resulted in a walkoff win. A few people thought I should have warned the catcher (it was the 2nd pitch - he never got back into the box after returning the ball to the pitcher). I figure that by calling it and costing his team a win, he (and his coach and teammates) will never forget that rule. If I had whispered to him to get back in the box, he might make that mistake later when the stakes are higher.

You do realize you made up a rule that does not exist!!! its only called during an intentional walk .!!! not a pitch out

The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his

position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is

being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within

the lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.

PENALTY: Balk.

(

Edited November 2, 2010 by mw94

[spiritumpa]

How about your a Umpire and therefore responsible to work the game under the Rules provided to you by the League. It is not your place to say what rule you will or will not enforce. Whether you agree with that rule or not.

So if you don't want to umpire within the rules given to you, don't umpire for a League that wants a Warning on the first Balk.

Otherwise call the game by the rules your customer (The League) directs.

If you do anything else, don't call yourself a Umpire.

please show me in a rule book(OBR--NCAA-NFHS-LL-USSSA-ETC-ETC)) that SAYS YOU WARN ON A BALK .

[JaxRolo]

please show me in a rule book(OBR--NCAA-NFHS-LL-USSSA-ETC-ETC)) that SAYS YOU WARN ON A BALK .

I agree with Semper Fi. Play by the rules provided for you. Around here you are provided by the Local Leagues to Warn on a first Balk. So we do it. No big deal. I don't like it but it is what we are told to do. Don't the messenger.

[mstaylor]

The leagues that I work that want to do it have never given a printed rule that says that so I don't do it.

[AZ ump]

You do realize you made up a rule that does not exist!!! its only called during an intentional walk .!!! not a pitch out

The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his

position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is

being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within

the lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.

PENALTY: Balk.

(

Sorry, I mis-described the play. It was an IBB. The catcher jumped out of the box to catch the first pitch, threw it back to the pitcher, and stood where he was to catch the next pitch.

Having said that, I learned something new. I always thought the catcher had to be inside the box to catch any pitch. So, if he wants to catch a pitch that he calls way outside, he could crouch 3 feet away from the box, and it would be perfectly legal?

[jjb]

Below 10 years old, we'll call the "Elephant Balks" (fake to home, fake to first, etc.) On the smaller ones, we'll call "time", walk over to the mound, and show them what they did wrong. (Most times, we're instructing the coaches more than the kids). Next one costs them.

From 11 on, we see a balk, we call a balk: we don't have "Balk Coupons" to hand out at the plate meeting.

Early this Fall, I had a 14 year old feint to first without throwing: (new team in the league). When I balked him, he turned to me and asked "Don't I get a warning?" when I stopped giggling at him, he said "the last umpire gave me a warning". I then told him "well, I guess that was your warning, then".

[semper_fi_72]

please show me in a rule book(OBR--NCAA-NFHS-LL-USSSA-ETC-ETC)) that SAYS YOU WARN ON A BALK .

You won't find it in the rulebook.

You will find it in the rules the league modifies to suit their needs or requirements.

Show me where in a rulebook it says a game has a time limit?

Yet we are always working games that have time limits set by the League.

Were in the rulebook (Any Rulebook) does it give you the authority to over ride or ignore a rule determined by a leagues rule committee and approved by its Board or President.

I just don't understand how hard head some people are about following the rules the League wishes a game to be played under.

[AZ ump]

In spite of me saying that I ignore coaches who tell me to issue warnings on balks, I completely agree with semper_fi. The difference is when a coach just unilaterally asks for it and sort of talks the other coach into going along with it that I ignore it. If it's in the league's rules, then I will abide by their wishes.

[yawetag]

please show me in a rule book(OBR--NCAA-NFHS-LL-USSSA-ETC-ETC)) that SAYS YOU WARN ON A BALK .

You said ETC, so here you go. From my local field's rules:

Sec 10, Item D (Atom Division [10U] Rules): There are no balks, but umpires may indicate to offenders errors made for the purpose of helping the pitcher achieve the correct delivery methods.

Sec 11, Item C (Bantam Division [12U] Rules): Each pitcher shall be given one warning, without penalty, per game prior to being called for a balk.

[jjb]

If I'm the DC, I really like your Sec 11, rule, 'Tag.

Say I've got the HT up, R1, R3, with the tying run at 3rd, 2 outs. I've got a Balk Coupon in my pocket (my pitcher hasn't balked, yet). I know R1 us moving on the pitch. I'm going to tell my pitcher to blow through the stop. If the BU doesn't call it, I've got the third out at 2nd, we win. If he calls it, I whip out the coupon, the runners go back, and we play on. Thanks, Blue....

[yawetag]

If I'm the DC, I really like your Sec 11, rule, 'Tag.

Say I've got the HT up, R1, R3, with the tying run at 3rd, 2 outs. I've got a Balk Coupon in my pocket (my pitcher hasn't balked, yet). I know R1 us moving on the pitch. I'm going to tell my pitcher to blow through the stop. If the BU doesn't call it, I've got the third out at 2nd, we win. If he calls it, I whip out the coupon, the runners go back, and we play on. Thanks, Blue....

And what about when the batter smokes one to right-center, scoring both?

[semper_fi_72]

If I'm the DC, I really like your Sec 11, rule, 'Tag.

Say I've got the HT up, R1, R3, with the tying run at 3rd, 2 outs. I've got a Balk Coupon in my pocket (my pitcher hasn't balked, yet). I know R1 us moving on the pitch. I'm going to tell my pitcher to blow through the stop. If the BU doesn't call it, I've got the third out at 2nd, we win. If he calls it, I whip out the coupon, the runners go back, and we play on. Thanks, Blue....

If that is the Leagues rules so be it.

If your a cheating rat and would actually teach your kids to play ball like that then you have no place coaching them.