Warnings on balks

[NovaScotiaBlue]

And what about when the batter smokes one to right-center, scoring both?

As per baseball rules.... if all runners, including the the batter runner advance 1 base ignore the balk..so that point is moot.

[Rich Ives]

If that is the Leagues rules so be it.

If your a cheating rat and would actually teach your kids to play ball like that then you have no place coaching them.

If there's a rule that allows a "free" balk then it isn't cheating.

[semper_fi_72]

If there's a rule that allows a "free" balk then it isn't cheating.

The rule is not there for a coach to tell his pitcher to intentionally balk.

That is not the spirit of what the rule is written for.

It shouldn't matter if a team wins or loses in Fall Ball either.

It is non-competitive and all the games I work they don't even track wins, loses or have standings.

It is strictly instructional ball.

The coaching staff of the leagues I work all approach it as such.

I have never worked a Regular Season game that ever had a balk warning.

That is the difference.

[jjb]

I've found that, when Local Leagues sit down in the off-season to make Rules Changes, they rarely look at Unintended Consequenses. They don't look at the whole set of rules, and realize that they're changing a rule somewhere else. In addition, for every rule that they add to the LL/BR/OBR rules, there's somebody, somewhere that will try and take advantage of it.

We go through it here, from time to time. We'll get an email from the Rules Committee, saying, "we're gong to do this", and it's our responsibility to send back a "whoa, wait a minute" response. Then, we have to help them fix it, or trash it altogether.

[Rich Ives]

The rule is not there for a coach to tell his pitcher to intentionally balk.

That is not the spirit of what the rule is written for.

It shouldn't matter if a team wins or loses in Fall Ball either.

It is non-competitive and all the games I work they don't even track wins, loses or have standings.

It is strictly instructional ball.

The coaching staff of the leagues I work all approach it as such.

I have never worked a Regular Season game that ever had a balk warning.

That is the difference.

You can have your pitcher intentionally balk anyway to see if you can get away with it. If it's not called it's not a balk (at least that time).

How about acting like you caught a ball you trapped?

How about holding the ball up on a tag like you really made a tag - but didn't?

How about faking a tag?

How about pretending the ball got by you to get the runner to leave the base?

How about the skunk in the outfield?

How about faking a bunt and swinging away?

If a catcher tips the batter's bat and it doesn't get called should he fess up?

How about if a fielder knows he missed the tag but got the out anyhow - should he fess up?

How about an umpire calling an out on the neighborhood play when the fielder never touched the base?

Other spoerts people can created their own lists.

It isn't cheating - it's how the game is played.

[PeteBooth]

I have no problem with this (well, I do, but I understand the theory) in fall ball, at levels where kids are just learning to pitch. But increasingly, I've been seeing at higher and higher ages. Last week I had a 17U game and after the plate meeting the home HC said, "By the way, we do one warning per pitcher on balks." I said, "No, we're straight up at this level." I may have sounded like an jerk, but come on. At 15-17 years old, you should know how not to balk.

One ALL IMPORTANT thing to remember. The game is NOT about us or how we feel about certain things. From your OP HC said, "By the way, we do one warning per pitcher on balks. I would make certain the VC has NO problem with it. If the VC looks and sounds like he "never heard of such a thing for this age group then NO Warning.

Assuming BOTH coaches want a warning then so be it. The ONLY other thing I will point out and clarify at the plate conference is that the ball is immediately dead (ala FED) whenever we issue the balk warning just in case

F1 balks and pitches or F1 balks and makes a wild throw. The warning takes all of 20 seconds. Me: Time "Skip that is your warning" Let's play

The leagues etc. pay our salary and if they want a warning we give them a warning. In a nutshell why do you care.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

How about we WARN the batter that with two strikes--the next one he is out!!!

we are umpires not coaches

You are missing the POINT. The coaches PAY for your service.

Suppose the game is scheduled for 7 innings. At the plate conference the coaches say "Blue we are ONLY playing 6 today" but we are still paying the Normal 7 inning Fee.

According to the way you responded, "Oh No coach it's a 7 inning game you CANNOT cut it short."

Within reason they can do what they want as LONG as a safety rule is NOT ignored. That's where we draw the line. Other then that who cares.

I do not get some of the responses concerning this type of issue. Why do you care what they want as long as the game does NOT drag on or as mentioned a safety rule jeopardized.

They can have a rule that says 'Blue, 4 fouls and the batter is out" for all I care or if F1 hits 3 batters they MUST be removed.

It's simple. If you do NOT like local league (house) rules then simply REFUSE the assignment. Don't worry there are plenty of officials (especially if the league pays well) that will do the games.

Pete Booth

[th3]

I've found that, when Local Leagues sit down in the off-season to make Rules Changes, they rarely look at Unintended Consequenses. They don't look at the whole set of rules, and realize that they're changing a rule somewhere else. In addition, for every rule that they add to the LL/BR/OBR rules, there's somebody, somewhere that will try and take advantage of it.

We go through it here, from time to time. We'll get an email from the Rules Committee, saying, "we're gong to do this", and it's our responsibility to send back a "whoa, wait a minute" response. Then, we have to help them fix it, or trash it altogether.

so so true

[yawetag]

As per baseball rules.... if all runners, including the the batter runner advance 1 base ignore the balk..so that point is moot.

I'm aware of the rules. My point was that teaching F1 to blow through a stop to prevent R1 from stealing has a chance of not mattering at all.

I've found that, when Local Leagues sit down in the off-season to make Rules Changes, they rarely look at Unintended Consequenses. They don't look at the whole set of rules, and realize that they're changing a rule somewhere else.

At the beginning of the season, I sent my local league a letter asking them to review the "must slide" rule they have in effect. I even offered to speak to the board during a meeting, where I would show the reasons the league's rules don't work, as well as what other leagues (FED, Little League, etc) use. I haven't received a reply yet.

Assuming BOTH coaches want a warning then so be it. The ONLY other thing I will point out and clarify at the plate conference is that the ball is immediately dead (ala FED) whenever we issue the balk warning just in case F1 balks and pitches or F1 balks and makes a wild throw.

Personally, I'm letting the ball stay live if I have the choice. You're penalizing the offense when you don't allow them to take advantage of a defensive mistake.

[jjb]

I think the whole thing comes down to a matter of perspective: what we as umpires are trying to accomplish, what the coach is trying to accomplish, and what the league is trying to accomplish.

Personally, as an Umpire, I'd like these kids to learn the game of baseball. As a result, I'd prefer to call balks as soon as possible.The earlier the kid learns not to open his shoulder/not to hang his free foot/what a "stop" means, the more time he'll have to work on the pitching mechanics stuff later on. We can explain it without penalty up to about age 10: I think after that the kid starts to get lazy and expects a warning for not doing what he knows he's supposed to do or not do.

I think the coaches (generally speaking), are trying to win this game/championship. He doesn't have the time/inclination/knowledge to work on individual stuff with his kids, so he'll "cut corners" wherever he can. For instance: how many coaches out there are telling the batter to run to first every time he strikes out? Why? It's easier than trying to teach them about first base occupied. How many want the kid to call "time" whenever he slides? Why? So he doesn't have to teach them to climb up. Same with balks: they'll want a warning, so they can tell the pitcher "hey, Billy, don't do that", mostly because they're unaware of what the kid did in the first place.

The Leagues are trying to keep everybody happy: coaches, umpires, and parents. Take away any one of the three, and you don't have a program. They're trying to find the happy medium, and hope people will leave them alone. They can't make the coaches teach the game, so all they have to work with is the rule book. That's why we end up with these coackamamie rules.

[PeteBooth]

I think the whole thing comes down to a matter of perspective: what we as umpires are trying to accomplish, what the coach is trying to accomplish, and what the league is trying to accomplish.

We are NOT coaches / players / or parents.

My response as a father of 4 (3 boys and a girl) was VASTLY different then my response as an umpire. As a parent I taught my kids how to play and worked with them. I didn't push them but simply showed them how to play the game.

As an official I don't care what the coaches "motives" are or if the kid ever learns proper pitching mechanics as that is NOT my job or role.

Other then calling the best game I can, as an official I am NOT trying to accomplish anything.

We are handed a set of rules whether we like them or not and are PAID to enforce those rules PLAIN and SIMPLE.

As I stated earlier as long as the safety rules are not "tinkered with" and the game does not drag on, I could care less what local (house) rules a particular league has.

Other then a HS or College game which are governed by the FED and NCAA respectfully, most leagues have "house" rules. The most common being timed games especially in tournaments and some form of CR. Also, playing with less then 9.

Personally I'd rather simply call the balk and be done with it BUT if the participants want a warning so be it. Also, in the scheme of things what's one warning. If the kid was not taught proper pitching mechanics, he will balk after the ONE warning anyway and we simply call it.

Also, as stated if you think these house rules are b******t etc. then simply refuse the assignment. No need to "get bent out of shape" because you think giving a balk warning or any other local rule for that matter is stupid.

Some refer to FED rules as FEDlandia BUT with the exception of a few states if you want HS assignments then you better learn them and enforce them.

Pete Booth

[semper_fi_72]

I think the whole thing comes down to a matter of perspective: what we as umpires are trying to accomplish, what the coach is trying to accomplish, and what the league is trying to accomplish.

Personally, as an Umpire, I'd like these kids to learn the game of baseball. As a result, I'd prefer to call balks as soon as possible.

The perspective of what we, as umpires are trying to accomplish, is to call the game under the set of rules that are given to us.

We are there to solely OFFICIATE the game under those rules.

Your not there to coach, teach or modify the rules as you see fit because of your preferences. :)

[JaxRolo]

Pete:

Your last post hit the nail on the head.

You are paid to officiate by the rules given to you. So just do it.

[mstaylor]

The OP was about a seventeen yr old league. What possible reason would there be from a coach's standpoint to want balk warnings? If a kid is a Jr or Sr in HS hasn't learned how to pitch without balking then he needs to find another position. For younger kids, not a problem, for older kids it is rediculous.

[jjb]

I couldn't agree with you more: you officiate the rules that you are given. I've lived in

"Fedlandia", and had the conversations ending with "Yep, that's the Rule, Coach". I've never worked in a "balk coupon" league. but, if I wanted to work there, I'd have to issue them at the meeting, I guess.

But, it doesn't mean I wouldn't try to change it from within during the off-season...

[mstaylor]

I worked with a league that wanted balk warnings in a 15/16 league. I told them when they called to ask me to work that I didn't warn, if they wanted wanted warnings to call somebody else. I never got turned down.

I managed in a 13/14 league that wanted to warn. I told them that if they did that then they would need a new manager for my team, it was a deal breaker. I insisted that I wanted balks called on my guys if they screwed up.

[PeteBooth]

The OP was about a seventeen yr old league. What possible reason would there be from a coach's standpoint to want balk warnings?

Michael while the age of the particpants is 16/17 they might be the "bottom of the barrel type"

As far as why the coaches want balk warnings I couldn't care less. Perhaps they are "lazy' and want the umpires to explain to them what they did wrong etc.

As I stated in the scheme of things one balk warning is "nothing" because ultimately if the kid doesn't know or hasn't been taught proper pitching mechanics he will balk anyway.

There are many rules we do not like but enforce. Personally I cannot stand the DH rule but it is a rule. Some leagues bat the order and have the last batted out rule as a form of CR. There are many many more.

A balk warning while not SPECIFICALLY in the rules, nevertheless is some form of rule that the league that pays for our service wants.

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

I have a problem with it on three fronts. First, there are many different types of ballks and warning for one does nothing to stop another. The only way they truly learn is to watch runners move. Should we put runners back because the pitcher doesn't know how to slide step? Should we not call runners back because they got picked from a good move and the runner doesn't understand how to lead properly. Second, balks are in the rules, straight up. It do changes the course of the game. A DH or a CR doesn't. Third, the kids aren't being taught properly. It doesn't matter if it a league of scrubs or an elite system, they deserve the benefit of proper training.

[Mr Umpire]

I agree with all of points about what a warning on balks allows. A "free" balk when there should be none and coaches get to use umpires to teach the kids rather than a coach doing his job, etc. I do not like giving warnings for these reasons.

However, irregardless of age, I will apply local rules when one exists. But, one has to exist and I am presented with it BEFORE the first balk is called.

I had one earlier this fall and as soon as I called it, coach hollers at me "Get 1 warning in Fall Ball." To which I replied, "No one told me of the warning." He didn't bother getting it presented to me and the VC said nothing to the same effect so the balk call stood.

My question is this. If you call OBR/NCAA/FED and they put the warning in their rules, would you give it then? If so, what is the difference? As long as the league presents the rule, then why try and dispute it? Why try to "buck the system"? Do what you have been paid/volunteered to do and move on. How many other rules are you ignoring or misapplying intentionally?

Oh, and BTW, I am an umpire, not a coach. I don't care if the kids learn the game. That is not my role as an umpire. My role is to make sure all participants get a "fair" chance to play the game properly with ALL rules enforced properly. The learning part is on the coaches, not me.

[PeteBooth]

I have a problem with it on three fronts. First, there are many different types of ballks and warning for one does nothing to stop another. The only way they truly learn is to watch runners move. Should we put runners back because the pitcher doesn't know how to slide step? Should we not call runners back because they got picked from a good move and the runner doesn't understand how to lead properly. Second, balks are in the rules, straight up. It do changes the course of the game. A DH or a CR doesn't. Third, the kids aren't being taught properly. It doesn't matter if it a league of scrubs or an elite system, they deserve the benefit of proper training.

Michael we can go and on and I am not trying to change your opinion but IMO your last statement the kids aren't being taught properly. It doesn't matter if it a league of scrubs or an elite system, they deserve the benefit of proper training is the crux for this type of debate.

As an official it's NOT our job to make certain the kids are being taught properly and deserve the benefit of proper training. While the game is going on we have "other" responsibilities to worry about.

Let's assume we do not give warnings and simply call the balk. How is that ALONE making sure the kids are being taught properly. When you call a balk all F1 KNOWS at that point is that he did something wrong, however, if he was NOT taught properly he has NO clue on what that something is.

Therefore, whether you give a warning or not is of no consequence. We are NOT coaches or "teachers of the game" while we are officiating. If the league wants a warning give them one.

Pete Booth

[Dean]

Just pondering....most of the balk warning rules come from leagues that the balk is new to them, and or they are younger players....

Shouldn't the runners get a lead off warning if they are picked off as well? After all most kids its their first year or so of learning to lead off and read that pitcher that gets a pass when they balk.

What other rules should be bent? perhaps 5 balls and 4 strikes? always start with someone on first? Of course this is full of ridiculousness.

But the balk warning is just a way the coach can be lazy...I bet that same team knows the hidden ball trick though.

Oh but I AM in favor of balk warnings - coach it was a step balk - don't come out here, don't come out here, bye bye LMAO . (JK)

Seriously though, Umpires and referees in other sports teach by penalizing unfair advantages. We are there for the integrity of the game. So the children of the children of the players playing that game will be able to play the same game, because umpires kept it honest.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Dean

[PeteBooth]

Shouldn't the runners get a lead off warning if they are picked off as well? After all most kids its their first year or so of learning to lead off and read that pitcher that gets a pass when they balk.

if that's what the league wants then so be it.

REMEMBER we are NOT the ones making up the rules. We are simply ENFORCING the rules that a particlar league wants.

What other rules should be bent?

MISSING the point. We as officials are NOT bending anything.

Let's get REAL for a minute

Your assignor calls and says " Dean I have a double dip for you this Saturday starting at 9 AM in ABC league at the local field. It's $60 a game and you get paid at the plate before the game begins. By the way Dean this league has a one balk warning per pitcher rule. They can bat the line-up and have CR's for F1 / F2. Either a bench player or last batted out if they bat the line-up.

Now the "ball is in your court" Either you accept the assignment and enforce THEIR LOCAL rules or refuse. It's that simple. At $60 a game or $120.00 for the day I doubt the assignor will have trouble filling this spot.

Pete Booth

[Mike Prince]

That's a great thing about this forum, that knowledgable members can share a difference of opinion in a constructive way. The league we work does have a warning rule, here it is straight from the local rulebook:

========

1.2.4. Balks

There are no penalties for “balks” in Cal Ripken minor league, but the defensive team should not be allowed to gain an advantage because of a balk.

Balks will be called in the Cal Ripken major league. ([Local rule] The Board hopes that umpires work with the pitchers, especially early in the year. As the season goes on, umpire's calling of balks will tighten up. Coaches, remember this is a learning year for the pitchers. Umpires will be instructed to be lenient on calling balks early but not allow a team to gain an advantage because of balks. Umpires and coaches should talk before the game as to their wishes on how tight this rule should be called. The bottom line on calling it is with the umpires.)

A balk is usually considered an attempt by the pitcher to deceive a base runner.

========

At the beginning of each season (we do Spring and Fall), the "no warn" date is determined, agreed on and clearly announced to coaches and umpires. It is usually somewhere around the 4th game (12 game regular season schedule). We generally do not have anypre-game discussion on the "tightness" of the call, either we are in the warn period or we are not. When we call one, especially in the early season, we are encouraged to tell the pitcher what he did wrong. I usually will make sure the coach comes out at that time to hear what we are telling his pitcher. Usually we are done in 30 seconds and we play on.

Do I agree with it? I guess it really doesn't matter what I think about it, but we abide by the local rules. This rule has been in effect for a long time, the good news is that it has changed over the years to get away from the warnings as the season progresses.

It does seem like we do a lot of warnings, then when we announce that we are going to call it without a warning, we don't call nearly as many balks as it seemed we gave warnings. This probably reinforces the board's belief that this rule is a good one when in reality we would be better off just calling it from day 1.

Edited November 8, 2010 by bikerider

[Dean]

Pete Booth

I have done enough of these games - I also know that unless they are very new most tell me :"I know I balked" had one tell me after the game he did it on purpose to put the kid back to first.

So yes I would do a game, yes I will warn them but guess what - they are balked ASAP, (within reason to the age playing) , now we don't have to worry about balk warnings for that pitcher.

And I still bet the team where the kids don't have a clue about balks, know the hidden ball trick - and they practice it.

[jjb]

Pete’s right: we’re responsible for enforcing the rules given to us by the League prior to the game. Period, Full Stop. Talk to anybody who works FED, you’ll see what I mean.

Where we have to dig our heels in is with the League before the rules are given to us. Sometimes, they are so vague, it gets us in trouble. Rider gave me the best example with the Ripkin Rule:

Umpires and coaches should talk before the game as to their wishes on how tight this rule should be called.

Whoa, Dude: anybody see a Bad Moon Rising, here? This is equivalent to asking the coaches if they want a big strike zone. No matter what they say, I guarantee they only want it for their pitcher. As soon as you call it for his guy who faked to first, he’s gonna want it for the other pitcher who blinked while on the rubber. This is a no-win for the umpire.

Here, at the upper levels, (11 and up), we call Balks: first time, every time. By the end of the season, if I call 2 in a game, it’s a lot.

For the Younger levels, we have what we call Elephant Balks, Major Balks, and Minor Balks. For example: (I’ll not list them all, but you know what I mean):

Elephant Balks: Feints to First and Home, Major (y’know, snapping) opening of the shoulder to first ( or third for LH). Penalty: Balk.

Major Balks: Complete stop, Removing Hand from Ball, Double Set. Penalty: Warn, then Balk.

Minor Balks: Disengage from the windup with the wrong foot, dropping ball while on the rubber. Penalty: warn, warn again, ask the coach to work with him after the game.

This gets us on the same page: Consistency is the key. Opening it up to individual Interpretation (or individual enforcement) breeds problems, ejections and emails.