Bunt?

[JaxRolo]

I made a ball call on a very similar scenario last fall in 11/12 league. Batter gets to plate and just holds his bat over the plate, pitch comes in off the plate and the bat did not move at all, the batter was like a statue. The explanation is simple, the batter did not offer at the pitch.

Think about it, if he had started his swing and in your judgment he legally checked his swing on a non-strike but his bat ended up over the plate, would you say he went and call the strike? The end result of that is almost identical to what is being discussed here, and he clearly was prepared to offer at the pitch in that scenario as he started a swing.

I don't know about anyone else, but in my mind the check swing is often harder to call than the scenario presented in this thread. JaxRolo, if it makes you feel any better most of the guys in my association would get the strike. I am in the minority with them whenever this discussion comes up.

I absolutely see your point. And I am not saying you guys are wrong and I am right. It is just my way of calling it and don't see a problem calling it the other way.

[Paperipper17]

I completely see the POV of the rule-that if they don't stab at it, it isn't an attempt- but I think at game speed, if I see the batter fail to pull back, my quick gut reaction will be to call a strike. He left it out there, so he had to have some intent. If he made up his mind not to bunt, he'd have pulled back, in my view.

Not saying I'm right, and you're wrong, but in my judgment, not pulling back is a bunt.

Rule 2-10:

"A bunt is a fair ball in which the batter does not swing to hit the ball, but holds the bat in the path of the ball to tap it slowly to the infield."

IMHO, holding it out there is enough.

That being said...I think if the pitch is three feet off the plate or otherwise wild and he just stands there like a statue, I have a ball. But that's nowhere near the path of the ball. If it's a reasonably close pitch, strike.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Paperipper17

[Rich Ives]

Exactly! To me it is really obvious that leaving the bat out there it means an attempt. If you don't want a strike called then pull it back.

OMG! Are you really that short of clues?

[Rich Ives]

we meant to bring it up, but forgot as it was the last day...

one of the Instructors said it should be called a strike if he leaves it out there, unless the pitch was way high or way low.

If the pitch is in the strike zone it's a striks anyhow.

This discussion, however, is about what a batter has to do to have his action considered an offer at the pitch.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Rich Ives

[grayhawk]

He doesn't have to pull the bat back for me to be convinced he didn't offer. I have had players just hold it out there without moving the bat and have the ball pass a foot over the bat. No way am I calling that an attempt. If he had moved the bat up towards the ball at all, then I have an attempt. Most of the time, this is going to happen with younger kids - 12U and under, though at age 11, they seem to start learning how to bunt better and will begin pulling the bat back when they don't like the pitch.

[JaxRolo]

OMG! Are you really that short of clues?

Yes I am Clueless what can I say. It was my upbringing. I knew at some point you would start insulting. It was expected. Not surprised.

Like I said I am not saying I am right. Just the way I call it and according to others, 50% of others call it also.

[Paperipper17]

OMG! Are you really that short of clues?

Rich, take it easy. It's a judgment call. Plain and simple. I just went through the entire FED and OBR rulebooks with wordsearch and found every use of "attempt," "bunt," "check," and "strike" and found nothing definitive. In Rolo's and my organization, part of our pregame spiel is "Balls and strikes, safes and outs, fair and foul are judgment calls." If to one umpire, leaving it out there is an attempt, then it's a strike. If to you, it isn't, then it's a ball and if I'm working with you I'll stand by it 100% because it's your judgment. All Rolo is saying is that when the judgment is his, it's a strike.

[JaxRolo]

So what some of you are saying is that in this picture the ball goes just under the bat and the bat didn't move then its a ball?

Just don't see it. I guess that makes me Clueless.

[noumpere]

Exactly! To me it is really obvious that leaving the bat out there it means an attempt. If you don't want a strike called then pull it back.

You can't "undo" a swing. So, if you're calling it a swing for leaving the bat out there, then it's a swing as soon as the bat gets out there.

Your interp (swing if he leaves it out there and ball if he pulls it back) is internally inconsistent.

[Rich Ives]

So what some of you are saying is that in this picture the ball goes just under the bat and the bat didn't move then its a ball?

Just don't see it. I guess that makes me Clueless.

Not at all. If the ball's in the strike zone it's a strike for being in the strike zone - but not for it being an attempt.

What we're all saying is that just holding the bat there is not an attempt - so you can't call it a strike on the basis of being an attempt to hit the pitch. That doesn't preclude it from being a strike for the pitch being in the strike zone.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Rich Ives

[Rich Ives]

Rich, take it easy. It's a judgment call. Plain and simple. I just went through the entire FED and OBR rulebooks with wordsearch and found every use of "attempt," "bunt," "check," and "strike" and found nothing definitive. In Rolo's and my organization, part of our pregame spiel is "Balls and strikes, safes and outs, fair and foul are judgment calls." If to one umpire, leaving it out there is an attempt, then it's a strike. If to you, it isn't, then it's a ball and if I'm working with you I'll stand by it 100% because it's your judgment. All Rolo is saying is that when the judgment is his, it's a strike.

If standing with the bat in "bunt" position but not offering at the ball is a strike, then so is standing there in "normal" position but not offering at the ball.

FED 2009 case book 7.2.1

In bunting, any movement of the bat toward the ball when the ball is over or near the plate area, is a strike. The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempt to bunt.

Jim Booth’s 40 Myths

A strike is an attempt to hit the ball. Simply holding the bat over the plate is not an attempt.

LL Case Book:

The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempted bunt.

For You and Jax: How can you possibly judge that a motionless batter and bat constitutes either intentionally meeting the ball (bunt definition) or the batter striking at the ball (strike definition)? That's HUGE stretch.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Rich Ives

[HokieUmp]

we meant to bring it up, but forgot as it was the last day...

one of the Instructors said it should be called a strike if he leaves it out there, unless the pitch was way high or way low.

Well, that's not the pro school teaching, as you'll find out in January. (You are going, right? I'm not remembering the wrong person, am I??)

Pitch has to be offered at to be called a strike. Holding the bat out there isn't enough. Sorry, Jax and Paper, but you're kinda running in the minority.

Is it judgment? Yes and no. The judgment part is that the umpire has to judge the batter made an attempt to strike at the ball. The ruling/interpretation/teaching part is that we're told "holding the bat out there is NOT an attempt." So, you're right, Paper - it's a judgment call - but to call a virtually motionless bat an attempt at striking is a WRONG judgment. Or incorrect application of the rule. Or something.

We love strikes, yes, but not to the point of punishing a hitter that made the right decision to hold back.

(And, as mentioned - we can certainly call the pitch itself a strike, if it's in the zone.)

Edited October 25, 2010 by HokieUmp
embellishment to original comment

[Dragon29]

All Rolo is saying is that when the judgment is his, it's a strike.

That's not judgment; that's pre-determination. Judgement takes place when you accept that more than one outcome is possible.

Jax & Paper - I see your point(s); if it looks like a strike and smells like a strike, etc . . . but, in this case, it's really not that simple.

[mazzamouth]

Well, that's not the pro school teaching, as you'll find out in January. (You are going, right? I'm not remembering the wrong person, am I??)

Pitch has to be offered at to be called a strike. Holding the bat out there isn't enough. Sorry, Jax and Paper, but you're kinda running in the minority.

Is it judgment? Yes and no. The judgment part is that the umpire has to judge the batter made an attempt to strike at the ball. The ruling/interpretation/teaching part is that we're told "holding the bat out there is NOT an attempt." So, you're right, Paper - it's a judgment call - but to call a virtually motionless bat an attempt at striking is a WRONG judgment. Or incorrect application of the rule. Or something.

We love strikes, yes, but not to the point of punishing a hitter that made the right decision to hold back.

(And, as mentioned - we can certainly call the pitch itself a strike, if it's in the zone.)

I agree with your call, as I did at the Camp.. Just holding it out there is not an attempt to me...

I do know they teach that at the Pro school.. Yes I'm going.. still havent made my mind up to which one.. im about 90% leaning one way.

[mstaylor]

Thats the way I see it. I just can't believe so far I am the only one on here that thinks its a strike. Maybe the others are afraid to speak up.

I was the first poster and said it wasn't a strike. No fear here.:)

[rulebook]

I was the first poster and said it wasn't a strike. No fear here.

I believe JaxRolo meant that there might be others who shared his opinion that it should be called a strike, but were hesistant to voice their opinion.

[Paperipper17]

Looks like I have to reverse course lol. If it's specifically addressed in the casebook...

If I ever do see it though, It's going to take me a second to process what I see.

[JaxRolo]

If standing with the bat in "bunt" position but not offering at the ball is a strike, then so is standing there in "normal" position but not offering at the ball.

FED 2009 case book 7.2.1

In bunting, any movement of the bat toward the ball when the ball is over or near the plate area, is a strike. The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempt to bunt.

Jim Booth’s 40 Myths

A strike is an attempt to hit the ball. Simply holding the bat over the plate is not an attempt.

LL Case Book:

The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempted bunt.

For You and Jax: How can you possibly judge that a motionless batter and bat constitutes either intentionally meeting the ball (bunt definition) or the batter striking at the ball (strike definition)? That's HUGE stretch.

I never said anything about just holding the bat there. I did say that if the bat is out there then I believe there is a very good chance the bat is going to move even slightly. So that slight movement could be judged as an attempt.

And yes I know by know that if the ball crosses the strike zone some umpires may call it a strike anyway. duh

And like I also said this has only happened once or maybe not at all. I'm trying to think back and I just can't remember a bunt attempt and the batter stand there like a statue. But maybe my cluelessness is hampering me at the moment.

[JaxRolo]

I believe JaxRolo meant that there might be others who shared his opinion that it should be called a strike, but were hesistant to voice their opinion.

That's what I meant. They might be called Clueless.:crybaby2:

[Rich Ives]

I So that slight movement could be judged as an attempt.

Yes it could, but if you listen to everyone here - it should not be.

[JaxRolo]

I would like to apologize to everyone for my cluelessness and lack of abilities as an umpire. Maybe I need to read all the books and watch all the videos I have purchased.

I will tell my assignor to quit putting me on the college showcase games, High School games and quit assigning me to work all these tournaments. I will tell him to me me on the Pitching machine league where all I have to do is count the pitches. :crybaby2:

[jnazz]

I would like to apologize to everyone for my cluelessness and lack of abilities as an umpire. Maybe I need to read all the books and watch all the videos I have purchased.

I will tell my assignor to quit putting me on the college showcase games, High School games and quit assigning me to work all these tournaments. I will tell him to me me on the Pitching machine league where all I have to do is count the pitches.

Can everyone all just get along? We're all here to help each other. And come on, don't you call outs in pitch machine games too?

Edited October 26, 2010 by jnazz

[mazzamouth]

I would like to apologize to everyone for my cluelessness and lack of abilities as an umpire. Maybe I need to read all the books and watch all the videos I have purchased.

I will tell my assignor to quit putting me on the college showcase games, High School games and quit assigning me to work all these tournaments. I will tell him to me me on the Pitching machine league where all I have to do is count the pitches.

well.. if they try to bunt in the pitch machine games, at least you will have an idea if it should be called a strike or not..:yippie:

[JaxRolo]

well.. if they try to bunt in the pitch machine games, at least you will have an idea if it should be called a strike or not..

Nice one! :crybaby2:

[Mr Umpire]

He won't have to worry about bunts. I think they are illegal in pitching machine games. :crybaby2: