Looking for Some Input...

[sasmallen]

I'm looking for some input on how to address something with another umpire, or maybe I shouldn't address it at all. I apologize in advance for the length of this but I want to provide as much information as possible.

A little background:

This umpire is the "senior" umpire of our association and he is, what I would consider, a good umpire. He has been doing it for 20+ years, he has excellent rules knowledge, and I think he has very good mechanics. He calls a good game, has a good (by-the-book) strike zone, and on the bases he gets into position very well because he hustles even though he is a rather large man. He is the guy I first learned from years ago before going to any clinics, and for that I will always be grateful.

For any big summer tournaments or games this umpire pretty much tells our assignor who should be assigned what game, and at what position. I want to add that he is a very good guy, always willing to help a umpire with less experience and answer any questions at anytime. He's trained just about everybody in our group including our assignor and he knows that our assignor considers him the "top dog" of the association.

Now my question/problem:

I end up calling with him quite a lot during this time of the year because we are responsible for all of the PONY/Colt national play All-Star Tournaments throughout the greater Houston area. There are some small things he does that I have always figured it was "his way" and I would sound like a jerk for pointing these out to him when we are just talking after a game because he is "set in his ways". Well, last night we did the championship game for the PONY Coast Region. I had the plate and there were a couple of HBP during the game. Well, after the game was over he asked me why I would call "Time" when a batter was hit by a pitch (he has always yelled "Dead Ball"). I explained to him my reasons, also recounting what I had learned at some of the clinics I had attended. He had a favorable response and said that he may use the Fall season to try and change his old way of calling "Dead Ball".

Now, with what happened above do you guys think I should approach him about a couple of other small things I have seen, or should I just continue to wait until he asks me for input? I'll mention some of the things I'm talking about, and some of you may even tell me they are too "ticky-tack" to worry about.

-During a game he refers to his partner as "Blue" instead of using their name. ex. "Time Blue!" when he calls time, when a new pitcher comes in and he has almost finished his warm-ups he might yell to his partner "Two more pitches Blue", If he's behind the plate, before the first pitch of a game he will point down the 1st base line and yell "Ready Blue?!"...you get the idea.

Once again I want to say these are not big things, and they really have no bearing on his actual ability, as he calls a good game. I'm probably the only one that has even noticed them.

-He brings his brush with him on the bases to dust off the pitchers plate, and between innings he'll pick up the baseball and wait for the pitcher to come out so he can throw it to him.

There are a few other things but you get the idea of how small these things are that I am talking about.

Now, because of his influence, many of our umpires do many of these very things when they are calling but I have no problem, for instance, telling one of them to just call me by my name instead of "Blue". Maybe I'm focusing on crap that doesn't matter or I could be wrong altogether...these things may be "the right way" or at least an "accepted" way, it's just that I've never seen or heard of them except from him and umpires that learned from him in our association.

Do I mention these to him? Do I continue to just ignore it? I mean, for instance, how do I NOT sound like a jerk by telling him that I believe bringing your brush with you on the bases for the pitchers plate is for softball umpires (he's never called softball)?

I will be calling with him a lot in the next week or two as we have a PONY South Zone Tournament starting and we will be running 3-man crews with me and him calling both semi-final games and doing the championship game.

Once again, I apologize for the length of this post, and thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[carolinablue]

I'm sure you will get a wide range of replies on this but I will answer from my point of view as I am a less senior umpire in my association as well. I understand what you are talking about but I think you are already doing the right thing concerning this matter by doing the right thing on the field. He has asked about the HBP situation because he noticed something you were doing and asked about it. Maybe one day during a game he will ask you to dust of the rubber or something in which case you will have another chance to talk to him. The same goes for the younger guys. They will see what you are doing on the field and ask about it, especially when they see you are not doing some of the things that some senior guys do.

This is just my opinion of course but I believe there is rank among umpires within an association. I will not overstep my bounds so to speak but I will always do what I know is right on the field regardless of what the other umpires are doing. Maybe by doing so, I can turn a few heads and get a chance to voice my opinion.

Edited July 13, 2010 by carolinablue

[mstaylor]

I would leave it alone but address it with other umpires in your group in passing. He is not going to change, has no interest in changing his habits and will only lead to bad feelings. With the guys in your group suggest that they not follow some of his ways and just wait for him to retire. Unfortunately there isn't a lot you can do.

[txump81]

Along the same lines as the OP...What do you do when a senior umpire basically overrules you on a rules call?

Sitch:

LLBB 10-11yo. R2 and R3. I am BU. PU is a senior umpire. R3 leaves as the pitcher releases the ball. I drop my hankerchief and watch and the Batter hits a soft fly that lands behind the pitchers mound and never leaves the infield. R3 scores, R2 scores, BR reaches 2B on a bad throw. As the play concludes, I call TIME and try to place BR back at 1B, and return R2 and R3 to their positions. This is a textbook 7.13 rules violation. He comes to me in the middle of placing runners and tells me that the runner leaving early can't affect anyone behind him. I try once to tell him the rule and that it is start out of the book, and he says you can look at the book if you want, but you are wrong. I drop it as I don't want to make a scene on the field. Between innings, he brings it up and says that's why coaches send R3 early as it doesn't affect anyone behind them. I just dropped it and probably won't bring it up to him ever as he got very defensive.

I did ask our UIC and he told me PU gave him a different story and said it was a double, and UIC gave me advise to never argue with a senior umpire.

How would you have handled this?

[mstaylor]

That's a different story. You may still have to yeild to the senior umpire buut try to keep what you know to be correct. If it is going to make a big mess on the field yield but tell him that wasn't your understanding and would like to look it up after the game together so you can be on the same page.

What did he do, score both or return the one runner to third. If you go with his double story then one runner should have returned. Did he explain how the kid got a clean double with the ball on the infield.

[txump81]

He scored both and let the BR stay at 2B under the interpretation that a runner leaving early can't affect the runners behind him.

I told him we could look it up later, but he blew it off with some comment about you can look it up if you want but you're wrong. On the field I couldn't remember the # but now I know 7.13.

[spiritump]

after 3 or 4 years if you umpire we are all about the same--it is the little things that add up to a quality umpire--just keep doing it the right way and those that care about what we do will follow the lead of a umpire that looks and acts the part--WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A UMPIRE CLEANED THE MOUND OF A PRO/COLLEGE GAME.

[Umpire in Chief]

@sasmallen Let him do what he is going to do but when he asks you why you do something explain it just as you did the time vs dead ball.

@txump81 thats tough I would tell him you didn't appreciate it, but dont dwell on it.

[SGT. D.]

No need to pick the fly-poop out of the pepper. Those things are just his way, no biggie.

Maybe he calls his partners "Blue" to maintain some level of anonymity, so the fans wont start riding you with your own name, or so there is no confusion of who he's referring too. Just a thought.

I think he's showing you a lot of respect by becoming willing to try something out of his norm.

[tommy]

seems like to me if you say to much to the guy it might just make him upset with you or ever worse, he may see your point and think you are right on his heels becoming the top dog and tell the assignor to stop giving you so many games just in spite. I dont know the man and dont know if he is like that but remember the king dosent give up the crown without a fight. i would say nothing, continue to work hard and attend clinics and you will get your just rewards in time.

[th3]

who cares of he, or anyone, says dead ball or time...or "blue" or "joe"....

[poppyfor3]

Reading your thread-- 20 plus years, "good" umpire, willing to teach at any time to newer members, has the assignor's ear, working multiple games with you. And he has an open mind (re: time vs.dead ball). COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS.

So he has these small idiosyncrasies (SP?). Don't we all? Last time I looked,there was only one perfect man---. Personally, I would simply take great joy working with this man and wait for that magic moment down the road someday to thank him for everything he has done for you and others.

And forget about these small things. Better to see the big picture and recognize that humans always fall short of any ideal. Just my two cents. Jack

[buddywilshire]

LLBB 10-11yo. R2 and R3. I am BU. PU is a senior umpire. R3 leaves as the pitcher releases the ball. I drop my hankerchief and watch and the Batter hits a soft fly that lands behind the pitchers mound and never leaves the infield. R3 scores, R2 scores, BR reaches 2B on a bad throw. As the play concludes, I call TIME and try to place BR back at 1B, and return R2 and R3 to their positions. This is a textbook 7.13 rules violation. He comes to me in the middle of placing runners and tells me that the runner leaving early can't affect anyone behind him. I try once to tell him the rule and that it is start out of the book, and he says you can look at the book if you want, but you are wrong. I drop it as I don't want to make a scene on the field. Between innings, he brings it up and says that's why coaches send R3 early as it doesn't affect anyone behind them. I just dropped it and probably won't bring it up to him ever as he got very defensive.

I don't get this. I guess there is some sort of LL rule, so I understand that but what does he mean that it doesn't effect the runners behind him? That makes no sense. If the rule is that the runner can't leave the base early, how does that not effect the runners behind him? I just don't get that rule. Also if it was something that the coaches did on purpose because it didn;t effect the runners behind him, wouldn't the manager being going crazy screaming and telling you the rule? I would think so.

[txump81]

I don't get this. I guess there is some sort of LL rule, so I understand that but what does he mean that it doesn't effect the runners behind him? That makes no sense. If the rule is that the runner can't leave the base early, how does that not effect the runners behind him? I just don't get that rule. Also if it was something that the coaches did on purpose because it didn;t effect the runners behind him, wouldn't the manager being going crazy screaming and telling you the rule? I would think so.

Yes it is a LL rule 7.13. You're right it makes no sense at all. What would keep a coach from having a runner lead off and start stealing home if the actions of a runner can't affect the trailing runners? (In LL Majors and below the runner can't leave until the ball reaches the batter) I don't know what or where his interpretation came from and the coaches didn't have a problem with his lack of enforcement of the rule.

I was hoping a coach would have protested so at least we could have gotten the rule right, but no such luck...most of the coaches in our area don't know the rules that well.

[buddywilshire]

Yes it is a LL rule 7.13. You're right it makes no sense at all. What would keep a coach from having a runner lead off and start stealing home if the actions of a runner can't affect the trailing runners? (In LL Majors and below the runner can't leave until the ball reaches the batter) I don't know what or where his interpretation came from and the coaches didn't have a problem with his lack of enforcement of the rule.

I was hoping a coach would have protested so at least we could have gotten the rule right, but no such luck...most of the coaches in our area don't know the rules that well.

So what did he want to do? Score the runner from second and have the guy on third stay on third? It makes no sense. I also don't get why the play should keep going. To me it should be a dead ball when you see he leaves. My guess is one of the reasons this rule was put into place was for safety of runners, if so having them run towards home while the batter is swinging surley would effect that. I guess the arguement is that the D could get an out on the pitch, but in this case it looks like the other team broke a rule and got the benefit from it too.

[buddywilshire]

. Well, last night we did the championship game for the PONY Coast Region. I had the plate and there were a couple of HBP during the game. Well, after the game was over he asked me why I would call "Time" when a batter was hit by a pitch (he has always yelled "Dead Ball"). I explained to him my reasons, also recounting what I had learned at some of the clinics I had attended. He had a favorable response and said that he may use the Fall season to try and change his old way of calling "Dead Ball".

Now, with what happened above do you guys think I should approach him about a couple of other small things I have seen, or should I just continue to wait until he asks me for input? I'll mention some of the things I'm talking about, and some of you may even tell me they are too "ticky-tack" to worry about.

-During a game he refers to his partner as "Blue" instead of using their name. ex. "Time Blue!" when he calls time, when a new pitcher comes in and he has almost finished his warm-ups he might yell to his partner "Two more pitches Blue", If he's behind the plate, before the first pitch of a game he will point down the 1st base line and yell "Ready Blue?!"...you get the idea.

-He brings his brush with him on the bases to dust off the pitchers plate, and between innings he'll pick up the baseball and wait for the pitcher to come out so he can throw it to him.

So why is it you call time after a HBP instead of dead ball? I also call Time, but I don't do it for a reason it is just usally the first thing that comes out.

Alot of guys will tell you that they would prefer that you don't call them anything on the field, first name or not. We actually talked about it in a clinic we were at a few weeks ago. Reason being I just told all the fans your name. So if I'm PU and you are BU and I have check swing I just point with the left and say "Did he go?" No reason to add "Did he go, sasmallen?" Now everyone knows your name. Would rather have him call me Blue, then Pat.

The brush thing is funny. Really, cleaning off the pitching plate? Someone else pointed out that you didn't see that in pro ball, but the difference is the fields we are on aren't up to proball standards. I see why guys do this, but to me I think it is just a waste of engery. If you can't tell if they are on the rubber, you need to get in a better spot.

Handling the ball is wrong, plain and simple. Get your butt out in short right.

Overall I understand what you are saying but it seems like tiny things that I wouldn't make a big deal out of.

[sasmallen]

seems like to me if you say to much to the guy it might just make him upset with you or ever worse, he may see your point and think you are right on his heels becoming the top dog and tell the assignor to stop giving you so many games just in spite. I dont know the man and dont know if he is like that but remember the king dosent give up the crown without a fight. i would say nothing, continue to work hard and attend clinics and you will get your just rewards in time.

I would like to say that I'm almost 100% sure the above would never be the case. My friend that I'm referring to (and he is somebody that I consider a friend) would never do something like trying to lighten my schedule. My main concern I guess, was not wanting to make it uncomfortable for him...or me for that matter. Also, I'm not looking for any rewards, I don't need to move up any higher (I have a very full NAIA/JuCo schedule outside of this association during the Spring).

Like I said before, I know we're not talking about things that are a big deal but I'm big on appearances (as a former police officer, I'll never forget the interview we were shown in the academy of the that killed a State Trooper with his own weapon during a traffic stop in Louisiana. He was asked when he decided to go for the Trooper's weapon, he stated that he noticed the Trooper had dirty fingernails and his uniform was wrinkled...this led him to believe the Trooper was just as lax with keeping up his physical fitness and defensive tactics training as he was with his personal appearance.).

I also understand that 99.8% of the people that watch or participate in these games will never notice these things.

Thanks again for the input everybody.

And to answer another post that asked why I call time when there's a HBP, it's because I was taught (right or wrong) that "dead ball" is a state and "time" is a command that gets you there.

[yawetag]

The brush thing is funny. Really, cleaning off the pitching plate?

It's a softball thing.

[Dragon29]

I also don't get why the play should keep going. To me it should be a dead ball when you see he leaves. My guess is one of the reasons this rule was put into place was for safety of runners, if so having them run towards home while the batter is swinging surley would effect that.

buddy,

Just to clarify this for the non-LL guys:

The play keeps going because that's how the rule is written. You wait until all action has ceased, then you announce the runner leaving early violation and make the (reverse!) awards. The runner is not Out for leaving early; just disadvantaged, so there's no need to stop play.

I do not think safety had anything to do with this rule. I think it's simply to stop kids from stealing every base once they get on. With the speed of the kids and the expertise level of a LL F1 & F2 combined, there'd be nothing to stop them if they were allowed to lead off and steal.

I've done some Pony games for kids of similar levels/ages on 60' & 70' fields, and they do exactly as I described; they pretty much steal 2nd & 3rd anytime they're available with little or no threat of being thrown out.

[mstaylor]

As stated dead ball is a condition, Time is how you get it there. For whatever reason softball teaches to say dead ball. It's not a horrible problem if you say dead ball in a baseball game, nobody is going to take your first born or anything but it isn't the right thing to do. If you attend a clinic with pro umpires as instructors they will have a burial for the ball.

As to 7.13 it is a rule to contain runners in a closed base system. When a runner leaves early you judge the value of the clean hit and then return whatever runners you can. If the batter hits a single but advances to a further base because of miscue then he returns to first. If any runner leaves early then it affects all runners ahead or behind him. There are times that you can't fix the violation. R1 and an infield hit, the best you can get is runners at first and second.

[buddywilshire]

Softball thing? Would you mind explaining that to me?

Not saying your wrong or anything just wondering the reasoning

[yawetag]

Softball thing? Would you mind explaining that to me?

Not saying your wrong or anything just wondering the reasoning

In softball, umpires clean off the pitcher's plate between innings. Why? I have no idea. I was trained to do it.

[LMSANS]

In softball, there is no mound. The pitchers plate is level with the ground and can disappear very easily. The pitching rules in softball require starting on the pitcher's plate (varies by org, but minimally). You need to see that.

[Tyennie]

heck man here in wyo. we have some mounds that are so crappy in their construction (no clay involved here) that the rubber is covered after some of these guys dig in and root around. As a BU i have scraped (with my foot, not a brush)literally a quarter inch of dirt off of the entire rubber, i had no idea where the thing was until i was almost standing on it myself.

[BlueKen]

Man, I'm glad our kid's league plays real baseball after the 4th grade and I can worry about normal rules like D3S, pickoffs, steals, etc.