Verbalizing <acronym title='Dropped third strike'>D3K</acronym>

[T-Rav]

Had 3 D3K's in a LL junior game tonight. HC came over between innings and told me I shouldn't be verbalizing "no catch" on D3K. He told me hes an umpire and has been to a clinic and they never said anything about that.

Am I wrong to yell "no catch" on D3K's while signalling safe mechanics?

[carolinablue]

I don't verbalize, just use the safe mechanic.

[Welpe]

I verbalize it along with signaling it. The coach needs to stick to coaching in that game.

[Mike Prince]

I don't verbalize it. In lower level ball every Mom and Dad in the crowd and dugout yells "Run!" on a D3K whether they should or not (1B occupied), so there's no need for me to be involved in that pandemonium. I was trained to give a safe sign with closed fists and not say anything on a D3K. Get into position to see a tag attempt at the plate (either on the B/R or R3, or stepping on the plate if it is a force situaton) and/or a running lane infraction by the B/R.

My advice is don't say anything and let the play develop/finish on its own. The only time I can see saying anything is if first base is occupied on the D3K to avoid chaos in lower level ball, but even with that thought overall my view on D3K is not to verbalize - give the 'safe' sign if the B/R can legally try for first and give the 'out' signal if he cannot.

In this case verbalizing essentially coaches the B/R and F2 who should be paying attention in the first place. As Welpe says coaches are there to coach, but also we need to remember we are there to umpire.

[JaxRolo]

I Don't verbalize.

[Welpe]

In this case verbalizing essentially coaches the B/R and F2 who should be paying attention in the first place.

Perhaps but I see it as verbalizing any other call especially if it's close. If it is obvious then perhaps no need but if not then I think it is simply giving your ruling same as if a fielder misses a swipe tag between bases. It gives both the F2 and BR a fair shot. Granted a good F2 or BR is going to tag/go anyways but sometimes that doesn't happen ergo the Doug Eddings incident.

[zm1283]

Verbalizing lets the catcher know the status of the ball, especially since he has his back to you. I verbalize it and give the "no catch" signal.

[Thunderheads]

I've heard that Evans doesn't teach vocalizing it ...

[johnnyg08]

Had 3 D3K's in a LL junior game tonight. HC came over between innings and told me I shouldn't be verbalizing "no catch" on D3K. He told me hes an umpire and has been to a clinic and they never said anything about that.

Am I wrong to yell "no catch" on D3K's while signalling safe mechanics?

Don't verbalize it. All the players will hear is "catch"

Just give the "safe" or "no catch" mechanic.

If you feel you must say something, Nancy Reagan coined the phrase: "just say no"

[johnnyg08]

Verbalizing lets the catcher know the status of the ball, especially since he has his back to you. I verbalize it and give the "no catch" signal.

If F2 hears you call him out, then he knows the status of the ball. No different than not verbalizing a fair ball down that line. That is a coaching issue, not an umpire issue.

Only use your voice when you must. It's more effective that way.

[sdix00]

From Maximizing

16. Dropped Third Strike

Determining whether or not the catcher legally secured a third strike can be a difficult call for the plate

umpire at times. The plate umpire could be obstructed by the catcher. The base umpire may be able to he l p

in this situation from his position along the foul line or from a starting position within the infield.

The plate umpire should always use two clear, very distinct mechanics to differentiate between the call of a

strike and a legal catch of the pitch. After signaling the strike, he should either indicate that the batter is out

on a legally caught third strike or that the pitch touched the ground before being secured by the catcher. If

legally caught, the umpire would signal the strike and then signal that the batter is out. If the catcher does

not legally catch the ball, the umpire should signal the strike and then indicate physically and verbally that

the ball was not legally secured. By pointing to the ground and verbally stating "Ball's on the ground!" or

"No catch!", the umpire is giving the batter a fair chance to advance and, also, informing the catcher that he

may have other obligations to fulfill in order to retire the batter.

In cases where the plate umpire does not signal or indicate that the ball was on the ground and the base

umpire clearly thinks it was, the base umpire may be able to assist his partner by verbally stating and

physically pointing "Ball's on the ground!", "Ball's in the dirt!", or "No catch!". If this happens, the plate

umpire should alertly echo his partner and make sure that the batter and catcher are clearly aware of the

status of the ball.

For some reason, I can't find the illustration on the mechanic, (maybe it was a handout), however there were three mechanics, 1. Strike, 2. Point to the ground, 3. Arms extended(safe)

At the Desert Classic, I asked Jim why there were three pictures for this Sitch, and he told me that the point to the ground was an optional mechanic, but as long as PU ruled first on the strike, then on the status of the ball, then all was good. I didn't ask him about the verbal part because it seemed clear to me that he was instructing us to use a verbal indication that the ball was not caught. We never drilled this mechanic in our limited 4 days.

[Thunderheads]

From Maximizing

16. Dropped Third Strike

Determining whether or not the catcher legally secured a third strike can be a difficult call for the plate

umpire at times. The plate umpire could be obstructed by the catcher. The base umpire may be able to he l p

in this situation from his position along the foul line or from a starting position within the infield.

The plate umpire should always use two clear, very distinct mechanics to differentiate between the call o f a

strike and a legal catch of the pitch. After signaling the strike, he should either indicate that the batter is ut

on a legally caught third strike or that the pitch touched the ground before being secured by the catcher. If

legally caught, the umpire would signal the strike and then signal that the batter is out. If the catcher doe

not legally catch the ball, the umpire should signal the strike and then indicate physically and verbally th a t

the ball was not legally secured. By pointing to the ground and verbally stating "Ball's on the ground!" o r

"No catch!", the umpire is giving the batter a fair chance to advance and, also, informing the catcher that he

may have other obligations to fulfill in order to retire the batter.

In cases where the plate umpire does not signal or indicate that the ball was on the ground and the base

umpire clearly thinks it was, the base umpire may be able to assist his partner by verbally stating and

physically pointing "Ball's on the ground!", "Ball's in the dirt!", or "No catch!". If this happens, the plat e

umpire should alertly echo his partner and make sure that the batter and catcher are clearly aware of the

status of the ball.

I sit corrected ..................

[Welpe]

Ah vindication. I need to suck it up and plunk down the money for this book. Thanks Stephen!

[Thunderheads]

Ah vindication. I need to suck it up and plunk down the money for this book. Thanks Stephen!

I need to find the flipping time to crack the thing more than 5 minutes! Damn I've been busy lately!

[T-Rav]

Thanks for Jim's mechanic on this. It seems like there are some differing opinions on the proper mechanic for the D3K.

[wvumpire1807]

The only time i say anything is when i have a catch. However when i believe the ball not to be caught i just point.

[Welpe]

Ah vindication. I need to suck it up and plunk down the money for this book. Thanks Stephen!

I need to find the flipping time to crack the thing more than 5 minutes! Damn I've been busy lately!

It sounds like you're neglecting your copy. You should send it to me for safe keeping. :shrug:

[Pops]

When I am 100% sure F2 caught it, I verbalize the strike and say, "out." But I currently don't say anything or do any physical mechanic when it touches the ground. The posts above have changed my mind on this...Thanks!

However, if one is not 100% sure of what happened and neither is your partner (or lack of a partner), you can't really say anything, can you? In those situations you sometimes have to work off the catcher's reaction. Does he come up tagging the batter? But what if he forgets and throws the ball around? I guess my point is that F2 is not always a reliable source, especially the younger, less experienced ones. Has this happened to anyone else?

[UmpJM]

Pops,

Sometimes it's difficult to tell whether or not the catcher cleanly caught the ball - if you don't believe me, ask Doug Eddings.

Of course whether or not he actually caught it is not that important; what matters is whether the PU JUDGES he caught it. Use all the info available: what you see, what you hear, the catcher's immediate reaction, maybe your partner has some help for you - then make your best call based on the available info. And let everybody know.

If it's the least bit ambiguous, I use both a physical and a verbal mechanic. I feel the verbal is important because the two players with the most immediate need to know what you judged - the batter and catcher - can't see you.

JM

[grayhawk]

Pops,

Sometimes it's difficult to tell whether or not the catcher cleanly caught the ball - if you don't believe me, ask Doug Eddings.

Of course whether or not he actually caught it is not that important; what matters is whether the PU JUDGES he caught it. Use all the info available: what you see, what you hear, the catcher's immediate reaction, maybe your partner has some help for you - then make your best call based on the available info. And let everybody know.

If it's the least bit ambiguous, I use both a physical and a verbal mechanic. I feel the verbal is important because the two players with the most immediate need to know what you judged - the batter and catcher - can't see you.

JM

Exactly my opinion on this. Let's face it, there will be times where F2 DID catch it, but you judged otherwise. By verbalizing, you are giving both the batter and catcher equal information with which to act upon. The smart F2s will always tag to be sure, but the Angels/White Sox game (Eddings) shows that not verbalizing can lead to disaster. I believe that game actually led Evans to change the mechanic to include a verbal.

[24sdad]

Uncaught third strike where batter can not advance - I give a fist and state "batters out."

Uncaught third strike where batter can advance - I give a safe signal and state "balls on the ground," while moving into position for one or two man mechanics.

Caught third strike that is in the dirt - I give a fist and state "thats a catch, thats a catch."

Works for me.

[johnnyg08]

I will respectfully disagree with Jim.

I used to use the "no catch" mechanic until I had two separate instances where I had players stop and look at me because all they heard was "catch" and I promise I was plenty loud.

Since I stopped using a verbal, I have never, never, not even once had a problem.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Harry's teaches just to say " No catch", then point with your right arm extended...this is to many mechanics in a very short span..

[johnnyg08]

I am comfortable being on an island for this until my NCAA evaluator or anybody else tells me to do it differently that will help me advance.

I'm not saying I'm right and they're wrong...we'll just agree to disagree.

Of course Harry couldn't possibly be the same as Jimmy on this and vice versa. That would be bad for business. :-)

[Pops]

Pops,

Sometimes it's difficult to tell whether or not the catcher cleanly caught the ball - if you don't believe me, ask Doug Eddings.

Of course whether or not he actually caught it is not that important; what matters is whether the PU JUDGES he caught it. Use all the info available: what you see, what you hear, the catcher's immediate reaction, maybe your partner has some help for you - then make your best call based on the available info. And let everybody know.

If it's the least bit ambiguous, I use both a physical and a verbal mechanic. I feel the verbal is important because the two players with the most immediate need to know what you judged - the batter and catcher - can't see you.

JM

Exactly my opinion on this. Let's face it, there will be times where F2 DID catch it, but you judged otherwise. By verbalizing, you are giving both the batter and catcher equal information with which to act upon. The smart F2s will always tag to be sure, but the Angels/White Sox game (Eddings) shows that not verbalizing can lead to disaster. I believe that game actually led Evans to change the mechanic to include a verbal.

So let's say that you can't tell if F2 caught it or not. And let's say that you're working solo at a youth ball game. For the past 4 innings you've verbalized the D3K, but now you can't do that because you're unsure about the catch. So will this non-verbal moment come back to bite you? Before I start calling it that way, I want some more opinions about this situation.