First Play or Second Play

[Bob Bainter]

well in 1 sense it doesn't matter if it was the 1st or 2nd throw... if the batter and all runners advance 1 base safely, then it is a 2 base award from the time of the throw,.

In this play the batter-runner had not reached first when the throw which ended up out of play was made...

[Kevin Finnerty]

So, when in hell are you going to tell us what the three disciples' interpretations were?

And my interpretation is that the throw by the shortstop is the second play, and the runners are awarded two bases from the time of throw. And my guess is that Evans is the one making it out to be something that it isn't by over-thinking.

[Guest]

In that case, "Cowboy" Joe Watson, Earl Hendricks or the one who is a brain surgeon in the off-season would rule the throw to 1B to be Play 1.

Excuse me, who?

MLB the show video games actually give the umpires identities which correlates to the game's built in tendancy to have the AI strike zone differ according to the tendencies of whoever is behind the plate, just like in real life. The game is pretty tight but it does have the odd massive rules glitch, hence my reference to the game in my first post. As you see, some of the fictional umpires are obvious homages to real life umpires.

I would bet Evans and Klemm gave one answer and Hoye gave the other.

[Haid D' Salaami]

well in 1 sense it doesn't matter if it was the 1st or 2nd throw... if the batter and all runners advance 1 base safely, then it is a 2 base award from the time of the throw,.

In this play the batter-runner had not reached first when the throw which ended up out of play was made...

So , since batter runner had not reached 1st.. this can be a TOP play.. I say time of pitch cause the throw to 2nd that the Short stop cut off was ( in my judgement) not a play.. there fore this is the 1st play by and infielder.. R2 scores ( that is the easy one) R1= 3rd.. BR 2nd

[Bob Bainter]

So, when in hell are you going to tell us what the three disciples' interpretations were?

And my interpretation is that the throw by the shortstop is the second play, and the runners are awarded two bases from the time of throw. And my guess is that Evans is the one making it out to be something that it isn't by over-thinking.

Two voted for the play being second play by an infielder...one for first play...

Had Gary Carter not opened his mouth and incorrectly placed his own base runner on the wrong base, I would have had score, score, second...

But, the best part of this whole discussion thread is the fact that not one person has commented on how we had no argument or discussion on this play...no ejections, no whining...I guess I should have posted this in "situations.".

This is the kind of situation dealing with the rules that I ask at O.U.T.S. to find out what kind of umpires I am working with...you can talk till you're blue in the face about rules...but can you actually handle the situation? That's my goal...but I thought we'd all think this was a potential SH*#house and it sure has been interesting watching all your responses!

[dumbdumb]

So, when in hell are you going to tell us what the three disciples' interpretations were?

And my interpretation is that the throw by the shortstop is the second play, and the runners are awarded two bases from the time of throw. And my guess is that Evans is the one making it out to be something that it isn't by over-thinking.

Two voted for the play being second play by an infielder...one for first play...

Had Gary Carter not opened his mouth and incorrectly placed his own base runner on the wrong base, I would have had score, score, second...

But, the best part of this whole discussion thread is the fact that not one person has commented on how we had no argument or discussion on this play...no ejections, no whining...I guess I should have posted this in "situations.".

This is the kind of situation dealing with the rules that I ask at O.U.T.S. to find out what kind of umpires I am working with...you can talk till you're blue in the face about rules...but can you actually handle the situation? That's my goal...but I thought we'd all think this was a potential SH*#house and it sure has been interesting watching all your responses!

So why didn't you do score, score, second or did Carter get the rule interpretation correct.

Also, what if the ball goes to ss and he runs towards the base(could be 1 step, could be 2 or 3) till he sees he won't make it in time and then throws, what if he fakes a throw (not just looks) to second. Are these considered the 2nd play.

[Rich Ives]

MLBUM

5.1 PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases

(Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has

possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a

runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or

actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the

runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an

attempted play.

EXAMPLES:

A play or attempted play:

(1) Runners on first and second, ground ball to the shortstop, who makes a swipe at the

runner from second but misses and then throws beyond first base into the stands.

Ruling: The swipe by the shortstop is an attempted play; thus the throw to first is not the

first play by an infielder (even though it is the first throw), and the proper award of bases

would be from the time of the throw.

(2) Runner on first and ground ball to second baseman who flips ball to short to get runner

from first but who is safe. Shortstop throws beyond first into the stands.

Ruling: The flip by the second baseman to the shortstop is an attempted play, even

though unsuccessful. The throw to first is not the first play by an infielder and thus runner

should be placed from the time of the throw. Runner who was on first would score and

batter-runner would be placed at second.

Not a play or attempted play:

(1) A fake or a feint to a base but not actually throwing, even though the fielder draws his

arm back to feint a throw.

(2) A pitcher feinting a throw toward a base to hold or check a runner's progress in order to

complete an appeal play at another base.

(3) Runner on first, ground ball to the shortstop, who starts to flip the ball to the second

baseman but does not and throws the ball beyond first and out of play.

Ruling: The feint to the second baseman is not considered a play or attempted play, and

award of bases is from the time of the pitch.

(4) Runners on first and third, runner on first stealing as ground ball is hit to shortstop. The

shortstop feints a throw home but does not throw-instead throws to first and into the

stands; during this time the runner from first has rounded second base.

Ruling: The feint by the shortstop toward home is not considered a play or attempted

play; thus the throw beyond first is the first play by an infielder and awards should be

made from the time of the pitch.

[johnnyg08]

But, the best part of this whole discussion thread is the fact that not one person has commented on how we had no argument or discussion on this play...no ejections, no whining...I guess I should have posted this in "situations.".

This happens all the time, that doesn't necessarily make it okay. Maybe not in the minor leagues though. I don't have experience at that level.

[johnnyg08]

So, when in hell are you going to tell us what the three disciples' interpretations were?

And my interpretation is that the throw by the shortstop is the second play, and the runners are awarded two bases from the time of throw. And my guess is that Evans is the one making it out to be something that it isn't by over-thinking.

Two voted for the play being second play by an infielder...one for first play...

Had Gary Carter not opened his mouth and incorrectly placed his own base runner on the wrong base, I would have had score, score, second...

But, the best part of this whole discussion thread is the fact that not one person has commented on how we had no argument or discussion on this play...no ejections, no whining...I guess I should have posted this in "situations.".

This is the kind of situation dealing with the rules that I ask at O.U.T.S. to find out what kind of umpires I am working with...you can talk till you're blue in the face about rules...but can you actually handle the situation? That's my goal...but I thought we'd all think this was a potential SH*#house and it sure has been interesting watching all your responses!

So why didn't you do score, score, second or did Carter get the rule interpretation correct.

Also, what if the ball goes to ss and he runs towards the base(could be 1 step, could be 2 or 3) till he sees he won't make it in time and then throws, what if he fakes a throw (not just looks) to second. Are these considered the 2nd play.

Good questions. Rich typed up everything you need to know. As well as what I posted from Evans' Maximizing book.

[dumbdumb]

So, when in hell are you going to tell us what the three disciples' interpretations were?

And my interpretation is that the throw by the shortstop is the second play, and the runners are awarded two bases from the time of throw. And my guess is that Evans is the one making it out to be something that it isn't by over-thinking.

Two voted for the play being second play by an infielder...one for first play...

Had Gary Carter not opened his mouth and incorrectly placed his own base runner on the wrong base, I would have had score, score, second...

But, the best part of this whole discussion thread is the fact that not one person has commented on how we had no argument or discussion on this play...no ejections, no whining...I guess I should have posted this in "situations.".

This is the kind of situation dealing with the rules that I ask at O.U.T.S. to find out what kind of umpires I am working with...you can talk till you're blue in the face about rules...but can you actually handle the situation? That's my goal...but I thought we'd all think this was a potential SH*#house and it sure has been interesting watching all your responses!

Once again, why did you not score, score, second.

If you have no outs with a runner on first and there is a line drive to second for the first out, and they try to double up the runner but the throw goes into the dugout, and now, the offensive coach says, "he gets second right", do you award him second (the old incorrect 1 plus 1, the base he is going to (first), plus a base (2nd) for the overthrow, or are you going tell the offensive coach who just yelled "he gets 2nd right" and incorrectly placed his own runner, that no, he gets third, because he was already on first when the whole play started so he gets 2 (third) on the overthrow.

[johnnyg08]

I guess I'm somewhat confused about how a supervisor of umpires would handle his employees knowingly applying a rule incorrectly and being okay with it because nobody says anything or suggests the incorrect rule, knowing it was wrong, but being okay with it because nobody says anything. Seems backwards to me.

I'll be happy to read why I'm wrong below.

[Mr Umpire]

I have the second play as well. It was a legitimate effort by F1 to retire a runner. Doesn't matter if it was by F6. The one in possession of the ball made the effort when making the throw.

[Bob Bainter]

So, when in hell are you going to tell us what the three disciples' interpretations were?

And my interpretation is that the throw by the shortstop is the second play, and the runners are awarded two bases from the time of throw. And my guess is that Evans is the one making it out to be something that it isn't by over-thinking.

Two voted for the play being second play by an infielder...one for first play...

Had Gary Carter not opened his mouth and incorrectly placed his own base runner on the wrong base, I would have had score, score, second...

But, the best part of this whole discussion thread is the fact that not one person has commented on how we had no argument or discussion on this play...no ejections, no whining...I guess I should have posted this in "situations.".

This is the kind of situation dealing with the rules that I ask at O.U.T.S. to find out what kind of umpires I am working with...you can talk till you're blue in the face about rules...but can you actually handle the situation? That's my goal...but I thought we'd all think this was a potential SH*#house and it sure has been interesting watching all your responses!

Once again, why did you not score, score, second.

If you have no outs with a runner on first and there is a line drive to second for the first out, and they try to double up the runner but the throw goes into the dugout, and now, the offensive coach says, "he gets second right", do you award him second (the old incorrect 1 plus 1, the base he is going to (first), plus a base (2nd) for the overthrow, or are you going tell the offensive coach who just yelled "he gets 2nd right" and incorrectly placed his own runner, that no, he gets third, because he was already on first when the whole play started so he gets 2 (third) on the overthrow.

I guess I'm somewhat confused about how a supervisor of umpires would handle his employees knowingly applying a rule incorrectly and being okay with it because nobody says anything or suggests the incorrect rule, knowing it was wrong, but being okay with it because nobody says anything. Seems backwards to me.

I'll be happy to read why I'm wrong below.

OK...OK!!! GEEZ!!! LOL

Why didn't I do the right thing? Let me come to the point of this WHOLE discussion...

Did I know that, in my mind, that was the second play by an infielder? Well, looking at all the differing opinions on here, I'm guessing you all assume you are all absolutely positive you would have called it the "correct" way...whether or not it's the first or second play by an infielder...whatever you believe, there is NO QUESTION in your minds that you would have immediately come up and made the "right" call...

Soooo...why would I, who "knew" the interpretation and had the "right" call in my mind, and have nearly 2,000 professional games under my belt...why would I "deliberately" make the wrong call??? That's what everybody on here wants to know, correct?

Let me make this clear as crystal as to how this transpired so there is no doubt exactly how this shook down:

1) I was the crew chief and home plate umpire that night...so when the ball went into the dugout, I called "time." (Easy)

2) When I looked up, I saw my partner at second base call time, and as a brand new umpire in the Atlantic League, look at the runner, and begin to award the bases. (Talking to him in the locker room afterwards, he said the light bulb was beginning to light up in his head that, holy crap, what just happened??? Was that a second play, and, HOLY CRAP, the runner was on second at the time of the throw!)

3) At that time, Gary Carter opens his mouth, inserts his foot, and basically screws himself by insisting his runner got third.

4) I am behind the plate, with my mask off, getting ready to walk towards the mound and award the runner standing on second home, when I see my partner award third. (So, would YOU step on your partner in the middle of his award, correct or incorrect? We can always get together and correct the award, after all, the ball is dead)

5) I, as the crew chief, put my mask back on, look towards both dugouts, just waiting for somebody to complain, and DEAD SILENCE...To this day, neither of those teams knew the difference of what just happened...

6) I, as the HP umpire, put the ball back in play, have a pitch thrown, and VOILA...the play stands...no protests here.

So...the moral of this whole story can be summed up by a couple of axioms all young umpires should and can remember:

1) Had we have had an argument, I would have called my crew together, told them what I had seen, and we would have decided, as a crew, if that had been a play or not...and this would NOT have been a rule interpretation subject to protest. It would have been our JUDGEMENT as to whether he made a play or not...had it been adjudged a play, we would have placed the runners accordingly...

2) Any play, whether interpreted correctly or not, is ALWAYS correctly interpreted if no one protests...it's that simple. Had I have come running in and stepped on my partner's toes, RIGHT OR WRONG, I would have started a major, major SH*#house with the other team. Now, if you're moral obligation is to get every stinking detail of every pitch and play correct 100% of the time, and you enjoy writing up ejection reports and causing a SH*# storm, then you are right...I should have done just that. If you truly want to learn why certain umpires are respected because they know how to handle situations...please follow my line of thought and judge the situation.

3) As to who of the three umpires I "namedropped" had which interpretation...I won't say, because I don't want to embarrass anyone. Suffice it to say that those people had differing opinions on the rule and the play, and I respect them for it.

4) Next time, I'll put this in the "situations" column. LOL

I respect each of your opinions, and I think it's very cool that you all put so much thought into these situations...but I think everybody needs to understand one thing in this particular situation as it occurred to my crew: This is was the third game of a 140+ game season...part of umpiring the same teams over and over again is straight survival...As I mentioned before...3 years later, nobody involved on that field except the umpires have a clue that they got a break, or got screwed, depending on which team you were on.

PS...The correct call would have been: Score, Score, Second...

5.1 PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases

(Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has

possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a

runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or

actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the

runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an

attempted play.

[johnnyg08]

I'm definitely not saying that I would've got the play right...in fact, had you not brought it up on here, I couldn't have even thought of a scenario where what you suggest would be up for discussion...so I thank you for bringing it up. If you brought it up as a matter of discussion, thank you, that's the point of this forum. Also, thank you for not getting defensive and openly discussing how you dealt with the play. That is how we all learn. By no means do I intend to sound arrogant or anything negative toward how your crew handled that situation.

In the heat of the moment I honestly don't know how I'd handle something that hasn't ever come up before. That's why you would bring those things up at your O.U.T.S. school...which makes perfect sense to me. Again, please keep posting this stuff...because it is fantastic discussion.

I just went back and read your most recent post again...what you wrote makes so much sense and I thank you for taking the time to put your thoughts into words and clarifying your reasoning. I like what you wrote about handling situations and how that separates the good from the great. You seem like an umpire's umpire which is why I think you'll be successful as the new supervisor of the NWL.

Thanks again.

[Bob Bainter]

JohnnyG...that is why I would definitely work with you any day...you have a good head on your shoulders!

Something I forgot to mention...had a supervisor been there...I would have explained that yes, we understood the ruling, but it was handled the way it was to prevent the SH*# storm...had we have been asked to get together, we would have had to award that runner home...just got extremely fortunate that we were the only ones who knew what was going on. :)

[dumbdumb]

Bob

I like the explanation but hang with me a minute here.

Have you ever heard of Murphy's law. Well I am that guy who has the "exact" same play the next night with Carter and I award the other team score, score, second, and have to run Carter and the whole team, circle the wagons, empty the benches and have to call players out of the dressing room to tell them it is OK to come out now.

What am I suppose to do when Carter tells me how that exact play was handled by rule the night before? And to TOP it off with my luck, he will protest the game. I am just asking. I am here to learn. I am scratching my head and cannot figure it out. Guess, I'll never get out of back yard wiffle ball at this rate much less ever deserve to put the equipment on, or even the nutty butty.

[noumpere]

Then you just tell Carter that you dont know exactly what happened the other night but your sure you have it right tonight.

And to Bobs play its umpire judgement as to whether it was a play and its umpire judgement as to whether the runner was already at second and maybe the base umpire just judged it differently even if it was incorrectly. So theres nothing yet to get involved in. If he hears a rules error being made then theres more likely the need to get involved.

[Umpire in Chief]

I like the explanation and knowing the rest of the story.

Thanks Bob.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I find nothing at all wrong with namedropping on these forums. Some people get their panties in a wad over it, probably because they have never worked with any famous umpires, or umpired many famous players before or after they became household names. I've done both, and anytime I mention the names of umpires or pro ballplayers who I have worked with or umpired, I get raked over the coals. Hey, don't hate the player, hate the game. I personally love to hear about famous umpires and players who forum members have worked side-by-side with. Just off the t o p of my head I can name at least 25+ current or former big leaguers who I had when they played HS ball or adult league after their careers were over. No shame in that, IMO.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Bob, I for one am frustrated and somewhat pissed that you still haven't told us which of the three disciples got the interpretation wrong. So, in your case, all this name-dropping is pretty rank.

And SH*#storm is a compound word, not two words. ;)

[Bob Bainter]

Ok...well...let's get this all cleared up about the whole namedropping thing...

I suppose I should have never opened up my mouth about who I talked to...I guess my whole point was I wanted to show you all that even highly respected umpires can have differences of opinion based on their interpretations of what rule books and case books say. That was the whole point. To say that it's pretty "rank" (what does that mean, anyway? Am I just old? LOL) that I namedropped and didn't SELLOUT my partners is pretty interesting to me.

1) If Evans was wrong, then what good do all his manuals do?

2) If Hoye was wrong, then how did he get to the big leagues?

3) If Klemm was wrong, then why is he in charge?

That will be the three questions that are asked depending who was "wrong." For what it's worth...it's a freaking judgement call...my or my partner's judgement as to whether or not he attempted to make a play...period.

Let me put it this way...these people are acquaintances of mine from through the years I worked in MiLB...I umpired on the field with Justin Klemm and with James Hoye...both in AAA. As for Jim, I don't know him as well as the others, but I have spent time with him at his Academy in my role as a NWL supervisor and I've worked with MANY of his students in my career...so, if anybody has a problem with the fact that I used their names when I actually have a reason to...then so be it.

Oh, and my partner...who awarded the runners "incorrectly" in everybody's opinion...is an Evans' graduate. I'm a Wendelstedt guy...LOL!

That should open a SH*#storm (compounded correctly) ;)

[Bob Bainter]

Bob

I like the explanation but hang with me a minute here.

Have you ever heard of Murphy's law. Well I am that guy who has the "exact" same play the next night with Carter and I award the other team score, score, second, and have to run Carter and the whole team, circle the wagons, empty the benches and have to call players out of the dressing room to tell them it is OK to come out now.

What am I suppose to do when Carter tells me how that exact play was handled by rule the night before? And to TOP it off with my luck, he will protest the game. I am just asking. I am here to learn. I am scratching my head and cannot figure it out. Guess, I'll never get out of back yard wiffle ball at this rate much less ever deserve to put the equipment on, or even the nutty butty.

Well, think of this...Gary was oblivious to his costing his team a run by opening his mouth. So what makes you think he would even notice that it's the same play? Let's call it Carter's law...God rest his soul...and, for what it's worth...I've only seen this happen once in 11 years...so I'm guessing it's not going to happen the next night...but, it could, so handle it how you see fit the next night. If you want to earn the nutty butty, you'll have to deal with it in your own way...LOL

[Don]

Good evening all!

I posed this question at the 2012 Oceanside Umpire Training Seminar. This occured in 2009 in the Atlantic League when I worked there. I was behind home plate...and I don't know if I ever will see this occur again.

I asked Jim Evans, Justin Klemm, and James Hoye their opinions on this one...I got two different answers...so let's start a discussion...

SITUATION: Runners on 1st and 2nd, one out.

PLAY: <acronym title='Base runner at 1B'>R1</acronym> and <acronym title='Base runner at 2B'>R2</acronym> begin a double steal. B1 hits a sharp one-hopper directly back to the pitcher. 2nd baseman is going to cover the bag for the steal. Pitcher turns and realizes he has no play at 3rd, so he fires the ball towards second base. The shortstop, who was running towards the ball up the middle, realizes that <acronym title='Base runner at 1B'>R1</acronym> is going to be safe at second base. When the pitcher throws the ball towards second base, the shortstop, now about 10 feet towards the mound in between the pitcher and the second base cutout, cuts the throw off from the pitcher. He immediately throws the ball to first base. At the time of his throw to first, <acronym title='Base runner at 1B'>R1</acronym> has safely slid into second base. What do you have?

Good luck on this one...I'll reveal the "correct" (if that's possible) call soon.

I don't have anything until I am told what happened when F6 threw the ball towards 1b. If it went out of play then this is the second play and runners placed accordingly, TOT. I cant imagine anyone giving an answer without more info than what is written here.

[johnnyg08]

Of course the ball went out of play. It's not a trick question. TOP and TOT awards on plays like this are because the ball went OOP

[Bob Bainter]

Good evening all!

I posed this question at the 2012 Oceanside Umpire Training Seminar. This occured in 2009 in the Atlantic League when I worked there. I was behind home plate...and I don't know if I ever will see this occur again.

I asked Jim Evans, Justin Klemm, and James Hoye their opinions on this one...I got two different answers...so let's start a discussion...

SITUATION: Runners on 1st and 2nd, one out.

PLAY: <acronym title='Base runner at 1B'><acronym title='Base runner at 1B'>R1</acronym></acronym> and <acronym title='Base runner at 2B'><acronym title='Base runner at 2B'>R2</acronym></acronym> begin a double steal. B1 hits a sharp one-hopper directly back to the pitcher. 2nd baseman is going to cover the bag for the steal. Pitcher turns and realizes he has no play at 3rd, so he fires the ball towards second base. The shortstop, who was running towards the ball up the middle, realizes that <acronym title='Base runner at 1B'><acronym title='Base runner at 1B'>R1</acronym></acronym> is going to be safe at second base. When the pitcher throws the ball towards second base, the shortstop, now about 10 feet towards the mound in between the pitcher and the second base cutout, cuts the throw off from the pitcher. He immediately throws the ball to first base. At the time of his throw to first, <acronym title='Base runner at 1B'><acronym title='Base runner at 1B'>R1</acronym></acronym> has safely slid into second base. What do you have?

Good luck on this one...I'll reveal the "correct" (if that's possible) call soon.

I don't have anything until I am told what happened when <acronym title='Shortstop'>F6</acronym> threw the ball towards 1b. If it went out of play then this is the second play and runners placed accordingly, <acronym title='Time of throw'>TOT</acronym>. I cant imagine anyone giving an answer without more info than what is written here.

Yeah, I goofed...F6 threw the ball out of play...