Quieting a fan

[Jboval]

J, I'm not trying to pick on you but I tend to agree with Brian on this one. Put yourself in the PU's shoes for a minute. I don't care how nicely you said it, unless it was quiet enough for only you and him to hear it, I would look at it as someone's who's trying to show me and/or my partner up.

Plus, what have you just showed the other fans? Undoubtedly some of them know you're an umpire, which makes you the foremost authority on all things umpiring. You've just given them carte-blanche to unleash anything on these guys. I mean, even you admit they don't know what they're doing... I'm sure you've seen it. One fan says something, which gets all the others going. As an ump, you shouldn't be that one...

Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight - I'm just saying maybe you should consider doing it differently in the future and how your actions might be perceived...QUOTE]

good points... I am sure someone overheard my comment to the PU, but it was said as a conversational manner since he was standing very, very close to me. It was not said in a 'loud mouth, everyone listen to me' type of situation or manner. However, everyone certainly got to hear him when he went bonkers on me and brought the attention to our 'discussion', which is what really set me aback. Yep, probably shouldn't of said anything, but honestly, when I have booted a call, I tend to take my licks and grin and bear it. I earned it, so I take it. This honestly would be like an umpire telling you he was gonna toss out a coach because he asked "hey blue, could you ask for help on that check swing?"... it was that ridiculous.

Again, my point in relaying the story was to say that umpires need to learn how to handle fans in a constructive manner, which is to say, not at all. This was NOT one of the examples on how to do it. Just like when I was younger and engaged a fan in a heated conversation, every close call from then on ended up getting me an earful of from people that wanted to get a rise out of me. Only happened to me once, and I learned my lesson.

[cardinalfan]

One of the hardest things I have found as an umpire is being a simple fan and watching my son and daughter play.

In the past I have coached both baseball and softball in our town for many seasons. Now that I am known as a umpire, I get a lot of questions from my fellow parents. The rules related ones are easy and I have never found myself at odds with a decision on the field. Judgement calls are quickly dismissed by "he has a different angle, I am sure he called what he saw". The tougher ones are the game control ones (profanity, arguing, malicious contact, dugout behavior, etc....).

I have never felt the uncontrollable need to approach an umpire before, during or after a game about thier work. (I have however, remained seated and silently critical while relecting on a no cost learning moment).

BRAVO!!!

Both my boys played baseball as well as basketball up to the college level. As a referee and umpire I never yelled at an official. It's difficult at times, but you just can't do it.

Jboval, take some friendly advice. If you wear the blue, don't yell at or question the blue. Some day, you may show up to call a game with that guy.

[mstaylor]

I rarely say anything during a game to any umpire. If I do it's because it's one of my guys. If my son was playing and I wasn't coaching then I would go in the pressbox. It kept me from saying something and took away a lot of questions.

As far as holding the coaches responsible for the fans, Dixie baseball does this as an organization.

[yawetag]

Toss the coach, I thought I said that.

No, you didn't. In fact, you said the complete opposite:

Am I going to toss the coach because one of the fans is being a jerk? No, but it doesn't mean I can't warn.

My point in asking, and Brian caught it, was that you should NEVER warn if you aren't going to follow with an ejection when it doesn't happen. Having a coach deal with an unruly fan is fine -- it's part of game management. However, if you're going to tell the coach (your words): "Coach, I'm not hearing it all day. That is your warning." you'd best give the WHOOSH when that fan isn't dealt with. THEN, as cato mentioned, you stop play until the fan is dealt with by the new head coach.

[yawetag]

Warren could add a new Forum called WAR STORIES and most of us have them when it comes to "kiddie Rec ball" which is for the most part the worst ball you will call.

Not a bad idea. I like the thought of a thread to write our bad times that didn't lead to ejections.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I did 10 PONY games this season. I had never done anything but H.S. and up before. The parents were so much worse than H.S. parents, I found it remarkable.

Every batter is entitled to have every pitch he takes be a ball. And every pitcher is entitled to have every pitch that's taken be a strike. At least that's what their parents say.

One 13-year-old took a pitch, outside black at the belt ... "Strike," I say.

"That pitch was outside, Evan; it was a ball."

Next pitch was a cutter that got a good piece right at the knees ... "Strike."

"That was low, Evan; it should be two and 0, not 0 and two."

I put my hands on my hips and looked at the kid and I said (barely loudly enough for his clown/slob/fanboy/rich guy dad to hear), "Does he honestly think he's helping you?"

The kid chuckled and said, "Yeah." Then the kid and his buddy the catcher started laughing at his dad's expense.

I never heard that clown back there or anywhere ever again that day or the two other times I had his son's game.

NEVER look at, talk to or in any way engage a spectator. Talking about them sometimes works beautifully, however.

[cardinalfan]

I did 10 PONY games this season. I had never done anything but H.S. and up before. The parents were so much worse than H.S. parents, I found it remarkable.

Every batter is entitled to have every pitch he takes be a ball. And every pitcher is entitled to have every pitch that's taken be a strike. At least that's what their parents say.

One 13-year-old took a pitch, outside black at the belt ... "Strike," I say.

"That pitch was outside, Evan; it was a ball."

Next pitch was a cutter that got a good piece right at the knees ... "Strike."

"That was low, Evan; it should be two and 0, not 0 and two."

I put my hands on my hips and looked at the kid and I said (barely loudly enough for his clown/slob/fanboy/rich guy dad to hear), "Does he honestly think he's helping you?"

The kid chuckled and said, "Yeah." Then the kid and his buddy the catcher started laughing at his dad's expense.

I never heard that clown back there or anywhere ever again that day or the two other times I had his son's game.

NEVER look at, talk to or in any way engage a spectator. Talking about them sometimes works beautifully, however.

During a Legion game last year a fan stood behind the screen and commented on pitches all day - didn't matter who was batting. He never got loud or used profanity, so I ignored him.

Late in the game a curveball comes across a little low and off the plate. I call ball four and the guy starts in. The backstop here is far enough away this guy doesn't hear anything at the plate.

The catcher turns around and yells, "SHUTUP! Crap."

Me: "Thanks catch. I've been wanting to do that all day."

Catcher: "He's stupid. I'm sick of hearing it. Maybe he will leave."

Me: "Well, he's pretty good back there behind the screen. Maybe he will start umpiring someday."

Catcher: "I doubt it. All he wants to do is tell everybody else what to do."

Me: "So you know him."

Catcher: "He's my dad."

Ouch! Glad I didn't say something embarrassing, but it was sad what this kid said about his dad.

PART 2: We walk off the field that night and head to the dressing room. Same guy says, "Good zone blue." It took everything I had to just to keep walking.

[txump81]

I have seen that most of the time the child is embarrassed by their obnoxious parent. It is sad to see this at any level. The parent needs to grow up and quit trying to live out their dream through their kid.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I have seen that most of the time the child is embarrassed by their obnoxious parent. It is sad to see this at any level. The parent needs to grow up and quit trying to live out their dream through their kid.

It's often way more complex than that: It often involves the belief that their little PONY superstar is on a fast track to millions as a pro ballplayer, only stopping long enough to star at a big-time D-I college.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Seriously.. I really do think you are the same guy....

Thin skin, taking things personal, and blowing something really small WAY out of proportion....

Read the post again... I was pretty clear about what I said, why I said it, and most importantly of all, how I said it. ... I did not try to throw the call back in the umpires face and belittle him in front of others, I just tried to show him that I disagreed with the call in a professional, courteous and mild manner... something that you could do well to try and emulate, in my opinion.

So you raise issues with umpires at games that involve 9-year-olds?? And then you admit it in a public forum full of umpires??

... :D:D:rollinglaugh::rollinglaugh:

[Kevin Finnerty]

I'm sorry; you guys just crack me up.

Nine-year-olds. Issues.

:rollinglaugh:

[PeteBooth]

you take it upon yourself to question an umpire's mechanics during a game from behind the fence and in front of the assembled parents? And you're upset because he didn't take your advice and immediately correct his partner?

You obviously wouldn't like something like that done to you, but you obviously see no problem in doing it to someone else.

Brian in general I agree with you BUT through my experiences (and most likely yours as well) the following occurs:

1. Coaches coach

2. Players Play

3. Umpires officiate AND

4. Fans are Fans (even officials who go to games as a Spectator or Fan)

Jboval (IMO should know better) was simply "acting his part" meaning he was a FAN at this game and "took off his official hat". .

FWIW: If it were me or you we wouldn't have given Jboval (no matter how cordial) the "time of day" when he started in about our partner.

Also, Jboval's post is from a FANS perspective and therefore, needs to be taken "with a grain of salt". It's my gut that we would get a different story from the officials of that game. I am not saying that the BU followed proper mechanics BUT we were not there.

I know I am repetitive but that's why I say Stay away from "kiddie ball" It's not because I feel that type of ball is beneath me etc. BUT these types of OP's and responses such as Jboval are all too common when it comes to 9/10 yr. old baseball.

Also, for the most part it's not the kids fault it's the ADULTS that make the experience miserable for some of these kids.

As I mentioned in a previous response, NO fan should be allowed any where near the umpires. There should be a TARP etc. so that people cannot see the plate area NOR be able to approach the PU as Jboval did. The BU other then getting a drink should head out to RF after each inning so he is away from the parents / fans.

Pete Booth

[noumpere]

I wasn't being a jerk, and wasn't trying to show him up. I have a little experience here on his side of the fence, so I say it nicely and in a 'buddy to buddy' type of way so as not to make him think I was being a jerk.

Just as some interference or obstruction can be unintentional, so can being a jerk.

[zm1283]

I did 10 PONY games this season. I had never done anything but H.S. and up before. The parents were so much worse than H.S. parents, I found it remarkable.

Every batter is entitled to have every pitch he takes be a ball. And every pitcher is entitled to have every pitch that's taken be a strike. At least that's what their parents say.

One 13-year-old took a pitch, outside black at the belt ... "Strike," I say.

"That pitch was outside, Evan; it was a ball."

Next pitch was a cutter that got a good piece right at the knees ... "Strike."

"That was low, Evan; it should be two and 0, not 0 and two."

I put my hands on my hips and looked at the kid and I said (barely loudly enough for his clown/slob/fanboy/rich guy dad to hear), "Does he honestly think he's helping you?"

The kid chuckled and said, "Yeah." Then the kid and his buddy the catcher started laughing at his dad's expense.

I never heard that clown back there or anywhere ever again that day or the two other times I had his son's game.

NEVER look at, talk to or in any way engage a spectator. Talking about them sometimes works beautifully, however.

That's some of the best advice that can be given. I know a good number of umpires I work with who make a habit out of warning/responding to/ejecting fans directly from the field. They don't understand that nothing good can come from this, and see it as their responsibility to take care of this stuff. I'm always of the opinion that unless a fan is disrupting the game, being profane, threatening, etc., they should probably be ignored.

[buddywilshire]

I'm doing a 50/70 game the other day. Good battle up until the end. 5-4 games goes to 15-4 in top of 7th. Go into bottom of 7th, 2 outs, 1-2 pitch to the tallest kid. Ball right over the plate, 2 inches above the ankles. I call it a ball. The crowd starts yelling, don't start changing the zone now blue. Hmmm, 95 degrees, 2 1/2 hours, and I get slack for extending the game by a pitch. Too funny. Two days later I go to watch my son play on same size field. Watching with my wife as the 6 umpires in the stands call the game for the field umps. She says to me, "I don't know how you do this."

I will never ever get this. Don't they understand if we had it our way every pitch would be a strike? Like you really wanted it to keep going on.

[Mr Umpire]

That's when you go next to him between innings and sit down and yell "balls in" .....and when he questions what you're doing ,.....you say 'well, you seem to have the perfect view from here, so I figured I'd call the game from your vantage point" ............

I know, umpire urban legend, but I had to!!

I had an umpire do this. Embarrassing to say the least. He opened the gate and sat down in the bleachers. All I did was turn around to brush off the plate. Thankfully, he didn't stay in the bleachers.

It caused others to get upset. But, it shut that loudmouth up. :nod:

[buddywilshire]

No, you didn't. In fact, you said the complete opposite:

My point in asking, and Brian caught it, was that you should NEVER warn if you aren't going to follow with an ejection when it doesn't happen. Having a coach deal with an unruly fan is fine -- it's part of game management. However, if you're going to tell the coach (your words): "Coach, I'm not hearing it all day. That is your warning." you'd best give the WHOOSH when that fan isn't dealt with. THEN, as cato mentioned, you stop play until the fan is dealt with by the new head coach.

The point is I can. I have warned the coach to control his fan. I can eject.

You said in your other post I don't know what league you can eject a coach for the fans. Well in the crappy rec league I do you can. I have never done it but I have been on the field for other Umps to do it.

[Umpire in Chief]

Wow... get busy for a day and this thread has exploded.

Going back several pages ago ... My hypothetical situation of tosssing an assistant, probably not the best solution, but it was advice given to me by a trusted veteran some time back when I had a fan problem, but did nothing about it.

He told me (paraphrased) 'you cant eject fans, but you can eject managers. Ask them to take care of it and if they don't they're disobeying an order by you take care of a problem effecting your umpiring of the game.'

I never bothered to look it up until now 9.01( comes close stating, "...Each umpire has the authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administrating of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties."

This is as close as I could find. Probably not the intended interpretation.

As for talking to another umpire during the game about anything about his game. I wouldn't go there. If asked after the game I'd give my two cents. I've been in the seats waiting for the next game when I see an umpire do something which makes me literally cringe, but not our place to say anything during the game.

War stories forum good idea. I'll try to make it happen today or tomorrow.

[mstaylor]

I had an umpire years ago tell me that he had the lights turned off at a Pony game and told the fans they would continue once all fans were gone. I don't know if it really happened but knowing the crew it probably did. This is the same bunch that I had to explain you couldn't have a balk with no runners but if he was calling an illegal pitch then it was a ball. Not a good crew.

[TNCoach]

I was coaching a school baseball game. We play back to back games with softball. This particular day, the softball game was first. During the softball game, the other team's coach was coaching first. She came down the line and yelled in at the umpire, "Where is your strike zone?" He put her in the dugout. Apparently between innings, she said something else and he tossed her. She refused to leave. He gave her x amount of time to go before he called ball game. She still refused and he called ball game.

A little later at our game, I was coaching third. Our dugout is along first base and our fans sit there. The visiting dugout is along third and their fans sit there. Play at third and the umpire made a bad call. The runner slid in and was not tagged, but from his angle it looked like the tag was made. I understood he saw what he called. The ball beat the runner there and I was okay with it. A fan wasn't. Behind me (yes their fans) someone yelled, "Talk about being out of position!" The umpire fired back, "One more word and you are all out of here!" The fan says, "You have to be kidding me!" By this time I recognize the fan as a teacher at the visiting school whose wife is a teacher at our school. The umpire yelled out, you are all gone and cleared the visiting stands! I called our AD who was with the golf team to fill her in. Our principal was the administrator and she talked him into just forcing the one fan out so we could finish.

[TNCoach]

Also, as a coach, I don't feel I should be responsible for my fans. I have no control over them. Lord knows I make some of them mad because of playing time anyway! I feel an administrator should be there and in charge. Even at that, I don't always know all of the fans and have no control over who shows up. I don't ever want to coach in leagues where I would have to control fans. When I was 16, I was coaching basketball in a league that had the rule that coaches had to control fans. A ref got onto me because a grandparent got onto her about a call. I told her, "You are the one that made the bad call." She just laughed at me. Seriously though, coaches have too much to worry about without being over the fans. The umpire is in charge of the game per se. He/She should have authority to deal with fans, but there should always be one person in charge of the place who is not involved with the game.

[buddywilshire]

Also, as a coach, I don't feel I should be responsible for my fans. I have no control over them. Lord knows I make some of them mad because of playing time anyway! I feel an administrator should be there and in charge. Even at that, I don't always know all of the fans and have no control over who shows up. I don't ever want to coach in leagues where I would have to control fans. When I was 16, I was coaching basketball in a league that had the rule that coaches had to control fans. A ref got onto me because a grandparent got onto her about a call. I told her, "You are the one that made the bad call." She just laughed at me. Seriously though, coaches have too much to worry about without being over the fans. The umpire is in charge of the game per se. He/She should have authority to deal with fans, but there should always be one person in charge of the place who is not involved with the game.

I agree with what you are talking, high school college or coaches of decent teams where fans actually come shouldn't be held accountable for what their fans do, but league I'm talking is so bad that usually the "fans" are maybe 20 people at most. It is easier for a coach to control them.

[Rich Ives]

The point is I can. I have warned the coach to control his fan. I can eject.

You said in your other post I don't know what league you can eject a coach for the fans. Well in the crappy rec league I do you can. I have never done it but I have been on the field for other Umps to do it.

There is NO rule in OBR, FED, or NCAA that allows an umpire to eject a coach over the conduct of a spectator.

LL specifically notes that a manager cannot be held responsible for the conduct of the fans.

Just because your league allows it doesn't mean anyone else does, or is a reason to disparage those who know their rules do not allow it.

[buddywilshire]

There is NO rule in OBR, FED, or NCAA that allows an umpire to eject a coach over the conduct of a spectator.

LL specifically notes that a manager cannot be held responsible for the conduct of the fans.

Just because your league allows it doesn't mean anyone else does, or is a reason to disparage those who know their rules do not allow it.

Who was disparaging? The other guy said he didn't know a league that you can eject someone in and I told him my crappy league. I'm not really sure what you are talking about.

[yawetag]

The point is I can. I have warned the coach to control his fan. I can eject.

Of course you can, especially if your local rules allow for it. I wasn't arguing that. My argument was that you stated you would warn the coach for the fan't behavior, then went on to say you wouldn't eject the coach if the fan didn't stop. That's an empty warning -- something you don't EVER want to do. If you're going to warn the coach, you're going to dump him when he doesn't fix it.

You said in your other post I don't know what league you can eject a coach for the fans.

I never said that. You've got me confused with Rich (of which I'm flattered):

I don't know of any organizations rules that allow you to dump a participant for crowd behavior.