Base awards

[crazyaboutcoues]

This is in the FED test:

With a runner on first base, The batter hits a ground ball to B4. B4 attempts to tag the runner advancing from first, but misses him. B4 then throws to first but sails the ball into the dugout. The runner and batter-runner are awarded:

a Two bases from thier position at the time of the pitch

b Two bases from the time of the throw

c two bases from when the ball became dead

d one base.

My first initial thought was two bases from the time of the pitch because it was the first throw, but the failed attempted play/tag on the runner could be considered the initial play, so the subsequent play is the throw to first, which makes it after the throw...

Thoughts???

[scrounge]

At the serious risk of overthinking it, just trying to visualize it, I'd guess b, but would a and b result in the exact same result? Unless the throw took quite a while, R1 prob hadn't achieved 2B at time of throw, so he'd get 3B whether it's time of throw or time of pitch. The batter would get 2B either way, so it's quite a confusing question. Or I'm confused - equally possible. But a or b seem the same in the end.

[johnnyg08]

The throw is the 2nd play by an infielder so it is a Time of Throw award.

You're right, it was the first throw, but not the first play, which is how you determine this base award.

[sdix00]

From J/R

Chapter 2

F. Play / No Play

It is a play if there is a

(1) tag or tag try of a runner,

(2) tag or tag try of a base,

(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner,

(4) rundown, or

(5) balk.

Examples: Play

1----- R2 and R1, the shortstop fields a ground ball and swipes at R2 but misses the tag, then overthrows past first: the tag attempt is a play, and the throw to first must be identified as a second play.

[Rich Ives]

it's the second play

[detailshp]

This is a modification of the old "one if by land, two if by sea" saying I keep in my head. Pitcher on rubber, one base, pitcher off rubber, or any other "sea" ( fielder ) two bases from time of throw. Just a little thing I keep in my head to remind me of the rule.

[noumpere]

This is a modification of the old "one if by land, two if by sea" saying I keep in my head. Pitcher on rubber, one base, pitcher off rubber, or any other "sea" ( fielder ) two bases from time of throw. Just a little thing I keep in my head to remind me of the rule.

Thats a good little ditty but one from the rubber has nothing to do with this play because its not the pitcher and you have it wrong because its not always two bases from time of throw. Other than that though you got it right.

[Richvee]

The attempted tag is the 1st play. TOT award. Casebook 8.3.5 Situation j

[mstaylor]

It is B, TOT, but it is probably going to be the same award as TOP unless the runner made second before he released the the throw to first. That's possible if the R1 was close to second when the tag attempt is made. In my mind I see the F4 at his position or close so it would be the same award.

[johnnyg08]

The throw is the 2nd play by an infielder so it is a Time of Throw award.

You're right, it was the first throw, but not the first play, which is how you determine this base award.

See this post. It's correct.

[mstaylor]

Johnny is correct, second play equals TOT award. My post agrees but has more information.

[crazyaboutcoues]

Thanks for the replies...

[detailshp]

This is a modification of the old "one if by land, two if by sea" saying I keep in my head. Pitcher on rubber, one base, pitcher off rubber, or any other "sea" ( fielder ) two bases from time of throw. Just a little thing I keep in my head to remind me of the rule.

Thats a good little ditty but one from the rubber has nothing to do with this play because its not the pitcher and you have it wrong because its not always two bases from time of throw. Other than that though you got it right.

Its easier for me to remember the ditty and the couple of execptions to the ditty, even though I know them. Just a nmenoic ( sic ) to help me, thats all.

[sdix00]

Remember three questions.

Base Awards: Overthrows

Was it a throw by the pitcher on the rubber (yes=1 base, no=2)

Was it the first play by an infielder? (yes=2 bases TOP, no=TOT)

Had every runner already made a base? (yes= 2 TOT, no=2 TOP)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&key=0AogJmxcjL5audDhpVmlWSWVzcEZHZlFNUVkteWw0Snc&hl=en_US&gid=1

[widac]

The online rules library makes it very easy to look this stuff up.

8.3.5 SITUATION J:

R1 is at second when B2 hits to F6, who tries to tag R1 but misses. F6 then overthrows first into dead-ball area. R1 remains at second, but B2 has touched first at the time of the throw.

RULING: Because it was the second play by an infielder, R1 is awarded home, and B2 is awarded third.

NFHS.arbitersports.com/front/105401/Rules/Book?rulebookid=9ac8df99-cf98-4c20-911c-d4bd810da7f9'>http://NFHS.arbitersports.com/front/105401/Rules/Book?rulebookid=9ac8df99-cf98-4c20-911c-d4bd810da7f9

[Haid D' Salaami]

The online rules library makes it very easy to look this stuff up.

8.3.5 SITUATION J:

R1 is at second when B2 hits to F6, who tries to tag R1 but misses. F6 then overthrows first into dead-ball area. R1 remains at second, but B2 has touched first at the time of the throw.

RULING: Because it was the second play by an infielder, R1 is awarded home, and B2 is awarded third.

http://NFHS.arbitersports.com/front/105401/Rules/Book?rulebookid=9ac8df99-cf98-4c20-911c-d4bd810da7f9

see the problem is the OP questions didnt tell us if BR had reached 1st, or R1 reached 2nd... if that happens then the award is different..

[Rich Ives]

The online rules library makes it very easy to look this stuff up.

8.3.5 SITUATION J:

R1 is at second when B2 hits to F6, who tries to tag R1 but misses. F6 then overthrows first into dead-ball area. R1 remains at second, but B2 has touched first at the time of the throw.

RULING: Because it was the second play by an infielder, R1 is awarded home, and B2 is awarded third.

http://NFHS.arbitersports.com/front/105401/Rules/Book?rulebookid=9ac8df99-cf98-4c20-911c-d4bd810da7f9

see the problem is the OP questions didnt tell us if BR had reached 1st, or R1 reached 2nd... if that happens then the award is different..

Only if it was the first play by an infielder - and this isn't.

[Mr Umpire]

At the serious risk of overthinking it, just trying to visualize it, I'd guess b, but would a and b result in the exact same result? Unless the throw took quite a while, R1 prob hadn't achieved 2B at time of throw, so he'd get 3B whether it's time of throw or time of pitch. The batter would get 2B either way, so it's quite a confusing question. Or I'm confused - equally possible. But a or b seem the same in the end.

Yes, a and b probably result the same in this case. But, the rationale has to be correct. B is the answer b/c it covers if R1 was at 2B or not and BR was at 1B or not. The results may differ but the rationale will still be the same: 2nd play is TOT.

[Haid D' Salaami]

The online rules library makes it very easy to look this stuff up.

8.3.5 SITUATION J:

R1 is at second when B2 hits to F6, who tries to tag R1 but misses. F6 then overthrows first into dead-ball area. R1 remains at second, but B2 has touched first at the time of the throw.

RULING: Because it was the second play by an infielder, R1 is awarded home, and B2 is awarded third.

http://NFHS.arbitersports.com/front/105401/Rules/Book?rulebookid=9ac8df99-cf98-4c20-911c-d4bd810da7f9

see the problem is the OP questions didnt tell us if BR had reached 1st, or R1 reached 2nd... if that happens then the award is different..

Only if it was the first play by an infielder - and this isn't.

I meant the awards of bases will be different.

if the batter is past 1st them the BR will end up at 3rd.. so yeah it does matter where the runners will end up.

[cookie]

Haid D'Salaami: "I meant the awards of bases will be different.

if the batter is past 1st them the BR will end up at 3rd.. so yeah it does matter where the runners will end up. "

In your situation, BR to 3rd ONLY if R1 had reached 2nd before the throw. However, if R1 (very slow runner) hadn't reached 2nd (implied in OP) at TOT and BR had already acquired 1st before TOT (very, very fast runner), then we would have 2 runners between 1st and 2nd at TOT. Lead runner gets the award to 3rd and BR only goes to 2nd. That would be the same result as TOP (though the award is based on TOT).

[noumpere]

Haid D'Salaami: "I meant the awards of bases will be different.

if the batter is past 1st them the BR will end up at 3rd.. so yeah it does matter where the runners will end up. "

In your situation, BR to 3rd ONLY if R1 had reached 2nd before the throw. However, if R1 (very slow runner) hadn't reached 2nd (implied in OP) at TOT and BR had already acquired 1st before TOT (very, very fast runner), then we would have 2 runners between 1st and 2nd at TOT. Lead runner gets the award to 3rd and BR only goes to 2nd. That would be the same result as TOP (though the award is based on TOT).

Ive lost track of exaclty what the play is that we are discussing but I dont think your last sentence is correct. Unless all runners have advanced one base then the first throw by the infielder is still from the TOP.

[UmpJM]

noumpere,

The thread started with a test question wher the fielder attempted a tag (unsuccessfully) prior to throwing the ball out of play.

Since his throw was not the first "play", the award is a TOT award regardless of where the runners are.

JM

[Forest Ump]

The intent of the question is to test your knowledge of TOP awards or TOT awards. Placing the runners is not relevent to the question.

[noumpere]

noumpere,

The thread started with a test question wher the fielder attempted a tag (unsuccessfully) prior to throwing the ball out of play.

Since his throw was not the first "play", the award is a TOT award regardless of where the runners are.

JM

I agree with that stance that its the second play and the award is from TOT no matter whether or not the runners have advanced. Thanks and sorry for any confusion I might of caused.