What the hell did you expect???

[Kevin Finnerty]

Scrounge,

I suppose you are extremely biased and that's fine. But after reading your statement, which contains much of the traditional arguments defending our shameless profiteering, I must say: Ours is an irresponsible nation. It's very sad that this age-old We're No. 1 sensibility seems to wipe away a lot of reality.

[scrounge]

If you just want to repeat the same platitudes and wave your hands and say it's "inarguable", solely because you deem it so, well then I guess there's nothing to discuss. But if personal attack and going after motive is your preferred method of communication on this, then I find your arguments - such as they are - hollow, with a very large measure of self-loathing and too-cool-for-school cynicism, and your premises ridiculous.

Good day, Sir.

Scrounge,

I suppose you are extremely biased and that's fine. But after reading your statement, which contains much of the traditional arguments defending our shameless profiteering, I must say: Ours is an irresponsible nation. It's very sad that this age-old We're No. 1 sensibility seems to wipe away a lot of reality.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Personal attack? That's pretty funny! Grow up.

You believe in medical profiteering, and I believe in health care. There are dozens of countries that take patient care seriously and deliver it with compassion and human decency. Ours is not one.

[scrounge]

Yes, you do keep saying that over and over and over again, without a shred of evidence or argument or reasoning. It still doesn't make it any more shameful and ridiculous.

Clearly, I do not share your self-loathing and hatred of country. I can see that this is a waste of time, so feel free to get the last word, or not, whichever you choose.

Personal attack? That's pretty funny! Grow up.

You believe in medical profiteering, and I believe in health care. There are dozens of countries that take patient care seriously and deliver it with compassion and human decency. Ours is not one.

[Kevin Finnerty]

If you translate my opposition to the way some things are done in this country to a "self-loathing" and a "hatred of country," then you are indeed a biased individual. You are also pretty audacious. How dare you?

If you are a part of that faction that blindly follows, have at it. But don't dismiss all others whose opinions are not in keeping with that blindly loyal way of thinking and being.

I love this country and most of the people in it, which is why I would like to see it become great again.

[Replacematt]

I'm going to point out two things:

The U.S. has one of the lowest rates of litigation in the developed world.

There is no significant difference in wait times for medical care, as a whole, between the U.S. and Canada. Most Western systems have far lower waits. Why is that? My hypothesis is geography. Both the U.S. and Canada have relatively decentralized, sparse populations compared to other nations.

[mstaylor]

OK, I am tiring of running in circles but I will make two points.

Kevin:

You keep pointing at the medical community as profiteering community. There is a degree of fraud involved in our system, but I assure you there is in any system invented. You keep pointing at other countries but do not mention a single country specifically. If there is a system you prefer please point it out.

Matt:

To say there is less litigation in this country than others is simply not true. You look at just not Drs, but the pharmacutical companies too. That is a large part of the cost of health care. Also the longer testing periods for the US adds to it. Then to say the wait times are the same in the US compared to Canada is crazy.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Michael, I suppose I would pick Italy. But France, Spain, Switzerland, Japan---they would all be nice places to visit while enjoying superior health care at a lower price delivered by people and institutions with their priorities in better order. There are many others that are rated higher than the U.S., but I would go to one of those.

We can't have something that's considered "the best" without making the effort or the sacrifices or having the devotion and the compassion found in other places around the world---especially parts of Europe.

[mstaylor]

I don't know enough about their systems to discuss it. My point is our gov't screws up everything it touches when they are trying to regulate or circumvent the private sector. They instituted SS and screwed it up. They instituted Medicaid and Medicare and screwed it up. They instituted the Dept of Ed, screwed it up. They instituted the Dept of Energy to get us off foriegn oil, screwed it up. The last thing I want to do is let them take over the complete health care system, they will screw it up.

Some gov't intervention is needed, I don't say there isn't. Complete takeover is not an option.

[Replacematt]

To say there is less litigation in this country than others is simply not true. You look at just not Drs, but the pharmacutical companies too. That is a large part of the cost of health care. Also the longer testing periods for the US adds to it. Then to say the wait times are the same in the US compared to Canada is crazy.

Both things that I said are true. Just because they don't jive with your perception do not make them any less so.

[johnnyg08]

Canada doctors probably don't like Canada because they probably make far less than the US doctors. Healthcare is a scam. I live in a state where the CEO of a certain health insurance company rakes in a tad over $100 MILLION dollars per year...really? Somebody is worth that much?

Anybody who says its not about the money is a fool.

[mstaylor]

CEOs in ANY major corporation is grossly over paid, that I absolutely agree with. I am in touch with Drs in other systems, especially Canada and they agree that the litigation is far less in other countries. Waits for elective surgeries are much longer in Canada than in the USA and that is fact, not perception. Elective means non life threatening but includes things like gall bladder surguries and other necessary but not an emergency. I also know that Drs in Cannada will come accross the line if possible for care. The other problem is many are less proficient than their counterparts here. That does not mean all Drs in Canada suck and all Drs in the US are great. That would be a crazy thing to say. I have a local Dr that came south for training and stayed here upon graduation.

[Replacematt]

CEOs in ANY major corporation is grossly over paid, that I absolutely agree with. I am in touch with Drs in other systems, especially Canada and they agree that the litigation is far less in other countries. Waits for elective surgeries are much longer in Canada than in the USA and that is fact, not perception. Elective means non life threatening but includes things like gall bladder surguries and other necessary but not an emergency. I also know that Drs in Cannada will come accross the line if possible for care. The other problem is many are less proficient than their counterparts here. That does not mean all Drs in Canada suck and all Drs in the US are great. That would be a crazy thing to say. I have a local Dr that came south for training and stayed here upon graduation.

It absolutely is perception.

Of the fewer than two dozen states with formalized civil courts where this type of lawsuit arises, the US ranks 17th per capita. The reason the US is perceived to have such a problem is that the population is so huge compared to other states.

As for wait times, when looking at modernized health-care systems, the US and Canada have nearly identical wait times, at about six times the average of the lowest states. The next highest states are at 2.5 to 2.7 times the wait. The funny thing is, in comparing wait times, there does not appear to be any correlation in the type of health-care system, whether private or public, single-payer or privately-insured.

BTW, got your PM. Ironically, I had seen a post of yours that didn't seem right, so I was worried about your health and was going to ask offline...but I think those worries have subsided.

[mstaylor]

CEOs in ANY major corporation is grossly over paid, that I absolutely agree with. I am in touch with Drs in other systems, especially Canada and they agree that the litigation is far less in other countries. Waits for elective surgeries are much longer in Canada than in the USA and that is fact, not perception. Elective means non life threatening but includes things like gall bladder surguries and other necessary but not an emergency. I also know that Drs in Cannada will come accross the line if possible for care. The other problem is many are less proficient than their counterparts here. That does not mean all Drs in Canada suck and all Drs in the US are great. That would be a crazy thing to say. I have a local Dr that came south for training and stayed here upon graduation.

It absolutely is perception.

Of the fewer than two dozen states with formalized civil courts where this type of lawsuit arises, the US ranks 17th per capita. The reason the US is perceived to have such a problem is that the population is so huge compared to other states.

As for wait times, when looking at modernized health-care systems, the US and Canada have nearly identical wait times, at about six times the average of the lowest states. The next highest states are at 2.5 to 2.7 times the wait. The funny thing is, in comparing wait times, there does not appear to be any correlation in the type of health-care system, whether private or public, single-payer or privately-insured.

BTW, got your PM. Ironically, I had seen a post of yours that didn't seem right, so I was worried about your health and was going to ask offline...but I think those worries have subsided.

Unless you are concerned about my sanity, which is always a concern, I'm in good shape for an old fart. :)

[Kevin Finnerty]

You're not that old.

[mstaylor]

I'm 53 and have had four heart attacks, three stents and a quad bypass. I still ran soccer up until I tore my ankle up. I'm in OK shape but not like I would like to be.

[Replacematt]

You're not that old.

I said that to my wife. At least I like my truck.

[SAB_UIC_TX]

I work in health care and am quite adept at our system and it's inner workings as well as those of several other developed nations on this planet. I've seen people take both sides of this debate but both have been nothing more than emotional rants about your positions. Stating facts and figues usually brings clarity to any discussion, as of yet, I have seen none. This is one topic rife with emotion one way or another. I for one am curious as to why those that adopt one point of view or another do so. When I see this I will more than kindly offer information on this subject, again which I am very well versed. As such, at this point this is nothing more than emotional ranting which remains firmly planted in the illogical. Can we have some facts or let's get back to umpiring.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Honestly, those who approve of the shameful health care system in this country should be the ones groping for "facts" to support their stance. If you don't see it, I'm not standing in your way. You're in your own way.

I made my statements based on several decades of harsh reality, some cases involving me, and most cases involving people close to me. I also said that you can consult any independent study you'd like to get your look at how lowly we rank.

But if you support or believe in this system, it is you that are coming from a position of weakness that you need to support.

[LMSANS]

Nobody can present facts because they are as fluid as the opinions that are expressed.

Fact:

Time from initial diagnosis (result of a routine checkup, asymptomatic) until surgery 7 days (because blood thinners had to be stopped), non-emergency

Total Billed cost of quad coronary bypass $76,000

Amount paid by insurance $34,000

Amount paid by patient $ 1,000

Amount written off by several providers $41,000

These are all facts that I can document. Can someone provide any facts that support an alternative?

[Kevin Finnerty]

Yours is a single case.

[mstaylor]

Kevin, you are just said that you were arguing from personal experience, both yours and relations or friends. When I had my quad bypass at 41, I had incredible insurance. I have no idea of the exact costs, my wife's job, but I know out of pocket it was less than fifty dollars. I absolutely know that is a special case, including the anesthesiologist that did the surgery was my wife's employer. Ironically the cardiologist that handled my case originally has recently been sent to jail for insurance fraud and doing unneeded procedures.

I don't think anybody can argue the Drs in this country, on the whole, are pretty damn good. I think Kevin is arguing the costs of health care and the mechanisms in place to provide it. These have flaws that need repairing, I have conceded that. I am arguing that the costs are inflated because of the extended amoount of time it takes to get a drug to market and the high cost of law suits that have driven malpractice insurance to rediclious levels. My wife was employed at one time for a group of anesthesiologists that 15 yrs ago had to work 5 months just to pay the malpractice insurance. Then they had to pay staff salaries, office expenses, their health insurance, liability and taxes. Then they could talk about their salary.

I think there is reform that needs to come on that side of the equation. I simply don't believe the gov't running making it cost any less or any better. There is a possibility that it may cover some more than there currently covered but at a huge expense and possibly at a lesser quality.

There is a nationally known Dr that has said on many occasions that he was very interested in doing clinic work when he came out of school. He spent several years doing this in free clinics. He said that what he found was people would not do what they were supposed to because since it was free it must not be good. He finally got out of it because he felt he was doing no good.

I have presented a few facts but it really too complex for us to fully understand and have no way of getting true numbers.

[justwin]

Or we could go to the Canadian system and go on a waiting list for 6 months to three years depending on the surgury. I have a friend that works in the Canadian system that brought his nephew south to our evil system when he had testicular cancer at 16. It wasn't the cost or even a wait, it was quality of care. He felt the doctors and hospitals are simply superior to what they have in Canada.

I agree there is greed in the system but there is also the need to be able to fight stupid lawsuits. Do you remember how much money was awarded for all the damaged women that had silicone breast implants. They supposedly were the scourge of the earth and it was proven in court how much damage they had done. Then after all this money was court ordered it was figured out that the science was completely bogus. I see ads every day for lawyers willing to take class action suits for all kinds of BS things. That's the biggest greed part in the system. Being my wife sent many years in the medical field, I think I have some experience in the discussion.

Dont degrade the canadian health care system..overall, compared to ours its much better and reaches the masses. we are lucky in america to have great doctors and the best available.. sad thing is only 5% can really afford this kind of care. was also reading that in many medical fields we have stolen hundreds of the best doctors from canada cause doctors in special fields make ten times more than in canada.. i have relatives in canada and to be honest i would rather have t heir health care anytime over ours in america

[mstaylor]

I am not degrading the Canadian system, I am reporting what guys inside the system are saying. Think of the problems we have with HMOs and transfer that system wide. That is my understanding, nonmedical people making medical decisions. The other problem,as reported from within, is that because Drs make less they get guys that shouldn't be Drs practicing.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Probably not a topic for this board at all. I would also offer some advice about sharing even in an anomous fashion, the information shared could cause a significant legal loss both corporately and personally. Not trying to be rude, but think before you post and the downstream ramifications. Remember there is no anonymity in cyber space.

If someone wants to sue me over my opinion, let 'em rip ! As long as my opinions are not slanderous,or libelous, screw anyone who dislikes it to the point of litigation.