Pitcher pitches before batter is in box??

[Jboval]

LL Ruleset. The defensive team said they wanted to intentionally walk the batter. For some reason in this area, some teams think they can just put a batter on base without throwing the pitches (huh? Does any ruleset allow this?)

Umpire informed them they had to throw the pitches, coach informs pitcher to pitch (in a very annoyed manner of course since he couldn't place batter on base automatically). Pitcher steps on rubber and fires in the first pitch, but before the batter has even stepped into the batters box. Umpire calls a balk for a quick pitch.

My thought is that the umpire should not have allowed the pitch since the batter was not yet in the box at all, let alone one foot out of the box. Some have argued that it was a quick pitch... I can't seem to find a directive saying definitive either way. Is there an interpretation out there somewhere that dictates what happens in this instance?

Thanks!

[ukce1861]

Absolutely a quick pitch. 8.05(e).

If I thought this was done unintentionally because the pitcher was young and wasn't paying attention, I'd probably come up with a, "No Pitch". Since this is Jrs. or Srs, they should know better and they were obviously ticked off, so yeah, I'm gonna burn them with a balk.

As for the automatic walk, JR/SR Softball allowed this up until the LL Congress in February. As of now, no LL allows this.

Edited May 8, 2010 by ukce1861

[kwiggie]

LL Ruleset. The defensive team said they wanted to intentionally walk the batter. For some reason in this area, some teams think they can just put a batter on base without throwing the pitches (huh? Does any ruleset allow this?)

fed

[yawetag]

LL Ruleset. The defensive team said they wanted to intentionally walk the batter. For some reason in this area, some teams think they can just put a batter on base without throwing the pitches (huh? Does any ruleset allow this?)

Fed does.

My thought is that the umpire should not have allowed the pitch since the batter was not yet in the box at all, let alone one foot out of the box. Some have argued that it was a quick pitch... I can't seem to find a directive saying definitive either way. Is there an interpretation out there somewhere that dictates what happens in this instance?

It depends. I would suppose PU (or DC) called Time to discuss the fact that the IBB couldn't be done the way the defense wanted it. If he did, then the ball isn't in play again until PU calls it in play.

If he didn't, the ball is live and I would call it a quick pitch. With runners on, it's a balk; without, illegal pitch.

[padist4ump]

LL rules did allow this a couple years ago but it was taken out after only one season...maybe he needs a new book!

[softballcoach]

LL rules did allow this a couple years ago but it was taken out after only one season...maybe he needs a new book!

If I remember correctly, LL did this when they went to a pitch count system, so the IW wouldn't count against the pitcher's count.

[Umpire in Chief]

Pitches count on intentional walks. That's why we had a big hub-bub last year or the year before when one team was trying to walk a kid and he took 2 swings to add to the pitch count.

[Mike Prince]

The "no pitch" IBB is in our local rule book, but only as a vehicle to keep the game moving. But pitchers are innings limited, not pitch count.

As the situation above is stated I would have a "no pitch" or "quick pitch" depending on whether there are baserunners or not.

Edited May 10, 2010 by bikerider
Answer OP's question

[Jboval]

Again, I still find it hard to believe you can call a 'balk' on a pitcher for pitching before the batter has even made an attempt to enter the batter's box. There was no direction from the umpire for him to enter the box, not that it would matter. I just seem to remember somewhere an interpretation that says you shouldn't allow the pitcher to pitch unless the batter has taken legal position in the box, and that a quick pitch refers to a pitch before the batter has had a chance to get set in the box, not before he has even entered it. Anyone else besides me think this, or am I just wrong?

[Dragon29]

To follow up on one of yawetag's comments:

Even if 'Time' wasn't announced, the conversation with the DM is a tacit timeout; the ball must be put back into play and since the conditions for doing so hadn't been met, it's a 'No Pitch' and an instruction to F1 to not deliver the ball until the ball's in play.

There's no way you can call a balk here. If he does it again, nail him.

[jnazz]

Maybe I'm overthinking, but somehow I remember the penalty for this being a ball for an illegal pitch not a balk. I seem to remember reading this interpretation years ago (maybe I'm wrong).

[Jboval]

It is driving me crazy too. I know I have seen somewhere that you don't allow the pitch. I just take the quick pitch ruling to be in effect once the batter makes an attempt or move to enter the box, not when he is standing outside the box looking at the coach for signs.

[Forest Ump]

OBR

Rule 8.01( Comment: With no runners on base, the pitcher is not required to come to a complete stop when using the Set Position. If, however, in the umpire’s judgment, a pitcher delivers the ball in a deliberate effort to catch the batter off guard, this delivery shall be deemed a quick pitch, for which the penalty is a ball. See Rule 8.05(e) Comment.

(e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;

Rule 8.05(e) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.

[Dragon29]

OK - I think the point is still being missed here.

If the PU was in conversation w/one of the managers, the ball is not in play. So, until the PU puts the ball back into play, this is nothing - and the PU cannot put the ball back into play until the batter is in the box.

"No Pitch! <stepping out> Pitcher, do not deliver a pitch until I put the ball back into play."

Now, you're done.

[Rich Ives]

OK - I think the point is still being missed here.

- and the PU cannot put the ball back into play until the batter is in the box.

.

In which rule set?

OBR says:

5.11 After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher’s plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls “Play.” The plate umpire shall call “Play” as soon as the pitcher takes his place on his plate with the ball in his possession.

[Dragon29]

In which rule set?

OBR says:

5.11 After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher’s plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls “Play.” The plate umpire shall call “Play” as soon as the pitcher takes his place on his plate with the ball in his possession.

This was a LL game.

LLRIM Instructor Comments:

The catcher must be in the catcher's box and all other players must be in fair territory

Normally, there would be a batter in the box as well, although, in some situations, such as an end-of-the-inning appeal, it would not be necessary.

Basically what they're saying is to meet the requirements of putting the ball in play described in 5.01

[Rich Ives]

This was a LL game.

LLRIM Instructor Comments:

The catcher must be in the catcher's box and all other players must be in fair territory

Normally, there would be a batter in the box as well, although, in some situations, such as an end-of-the-inning appeal, it would not be necessary.

Basically what they're saying is to meet the requirements of putting the ball in play described in 5.01

OK then - LL 5.11

5.11 -- After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes position on the pitcher's plate with a new ball, or the same ball in said pitcher’s possession and the plate umpire calls "Play." The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pitcher takes position on the plate with possession of the ball.

[Jboval]

Ok, let's pretend the Umpire sees the pitcher is on the rubber, and puts the ball in play. The batter is standing 3' away from the batter's box taking his new set of signals, and during that time, the pitcher delivers the pitch (for the sake of argument, let's say less than 5 seconds has transpired since you declared play). I am not talking one foot in the box here, I am talking far away from the box. Would you still call a balk with runners on base? Or would you: as soon as you see the pitcher start his delivery, stop him, and tell him he has to wait until the batter is in the box before starting his delivery, then tell the batter to take his position?

[mstaylor]

If the ball is dead and it is a situation that requires a batter, as in this case, I wait for the batter to get in the box before I put it in play.

[JaxRolo]

Ok, let's pretend the Umpire sees the pitcher is on the rubber, and puts the ball in play. The batter is standing 3' away from the batter's box taking his new set of signals, and during that time, the pitcher delivers the pitch (for the sake of argument, let's say less than 5 seconds has transpired since you declared play). I am not talking one foot in the box here, I am talking far away from the box. Would you still call a balk with runners on base? Or would you: as soon as you see the pitcher start his delivery, stop him, and tell him he has to wait until the batter is in the box before starting his delivery, then tell the batter to take his position?

I believe it is best to Stop him

[Mike Prince]

If the ball is dead and it is a situation that requires a batter, as in this case, I wait for the batter to get in the box before I put it in play.

Agree this is best option whenever possible. Takes all of the ambiguity out of the situation. Catcher ready, batter in box and pitcher on rubber with ball - put the ball in play then. Doing so earlier opens up multiple cans of worms.

[Rich Ives]

If I remember correctly, LL did this when they went to a pitch count system, so the IW wouldn't count against the pitcher's count.

They changed it before they went to pitch count ( to be the same as FED) but then changed back so it WOULD count against the pitch count.

[Dragon29]

OK then - LL 5.11

5.11 -- After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes position on the pitcher's plate with a new ball, or the same ball in said pitcher’s possession and the plate umpire calls "Play." The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pitcher takes position on the plate with possession of the ball.

Rich - The LLRIM comments I posted were from 5.11

Sorry I didn't make that clear w/the first posting.

[Pops]

Agree this is best option whenever possible. Takes all of the ambiguity out of the situation. Catcher ready, batter in box and pitcher on rubber with ball - put the ball in play then. Doing so earlier opens up multiple cans of worms.

I think we've all seen this "can of worms:" After a foul ball the batter is out of the box looking at his coach. The pitcher sees the runner taking his lead off first and picks him off. Your partner calls him out. The defense starts running off the field while you are still holding up your hand.

[mstaylor]

As soon as he steps to throw the PU should be coming out explaining the ball is dead.