making the call from the "c" position

[D62 blue]

this has now happened twice in the last 6 days:wow: . this is LL diamond . im in "c" at the cut of the grass runners at least on R1 R2 , ground ball hit to infield, i close my distance a little and get my angle to 1st (angle over distance mechanic) , F3 does his stretch waiting for the throw . it is very difficult from that distance to see a pulled foot , iam basically "straight lined" . yes if my PU partner is doing his job he should see any swipe tag or pulled foot . my questions is simply , is there any unique tip that might make this call easier . i called out a runner the other day , OC came asked me to get help , my partner said F3 was off the bag (pulled foot) , i changed my call to safe . the DC said nothing made no argument . tonight again the same play , i make an out call , 1st base coach having a fit, F3 off the bag blue !! this time OC doesnt come out and ask for any help ? so inning over . an inning or so later i chat with my PU , ask well was he on the bag ? he says i think so ? he says it was very close but yes he was in contact just barely ? to me this is a tough call to make from way over in "c" , even with the angle distance mechanic . if i moved a little to the left or right , dont know if it would really make much difference ? if i were to work the "pinch" mechanic , which LL doesnt like or teach , because of the small diamond , i would be much closer but possibly in the way . i have worked the "pinch" before and had coaches complaining that im blocking or otherwise blocking a fielders view .

d62 blue

[mazzamouth]

this has now happened twice in the last 6 days:wow: . this is LL diamond . im in "c" at the cut of the grass runners at least on R1 R2 , ground ball hit to infield, i close my distance a little and get my angle to 1st (angle over distance mechanic) , F3 does his stretch waiting for the throw . it is very difficult from that distance to see a pulled foot , iam basically "straight lined" . yes if my PU partner is doing his job he should see any swipe tag or pulled foot . my questions is simply , is there any unique tip that might make this call easier . i called out a runner the other day , OC came asked me to get help , my partner said F3 was off the bag (pulled foot) , i changed my call to safe . the DC said nothing made no argument . tonight again the same play , i make an out call , 1st base coach having a fit, F3 off the bag blue !! this time OC doesnt come out and ask for any help ? so inning over . an inning or so later i chat with my PU , ask well was he on the bag ? he says i think so ? he says it was very close but yes he was in contact just barely ? to me this is a tough call to make from way over in "c" , even with the angle distance mechanic . if i moved a little to the left or right , dont know if it would really make much difference ? if i were to work the "pinch" mechanic , which LL doesnt like or teach , because of the small diamond , i would be much closer but possibly in the way . i have worked the "pinch" before and had coaches complaining that im blocking or otherwise blocking a fielders view .

d62 blue

I know i don't talk much about LL fields...LOL but on the big field, you should be moving in your working area, and moving almost at the angle toward the 45' line.. this will help with an angle.

On your call at 1st.. you need to call what you see .. if the coach comes and ask for you to get help, then go and get together with the PU and talk, if he something else keep or change your call. Its not hard.. the most important thing is to get the call right. Not look good....LOL

[yawetag]

This is one of the problems with a two-man system. As mazza said, you have to try to get into the best position you can and call what you see. You can't rely on your PU to see it. In a R1, R2 situation, he's got the touch of R2 at 3B.

[kylejt]

Making calls at first, from behind the shortstop on the little diamond, is the toughest call in organized ball. If you're working with a trusted partner behind the dish, he's looking down the barrel of the play at first. If there's a stretch by F3, go to the PU first "Jim! Was he on the bag?".

That said, there's only five or six guys (out of 50 I might work with) that I trust going to on this. So know your teammates out there.

[yawetag]

Making calls at first, from behind the shortstop on the little diamond, is the toughest call in organized ball. If you're working with a trusted partner behind the dish, he's looking down the barrel of the play at first. If there's a stretch by F3, go to the PU first "Jim! Was he on the bag?".

And who has the touch of R2 at third?

[mstaylor]

Mazz, you have to remember that on sixty foot you are outside the bases. Unless the ball is hit in the SS area I will come across the the grass to get a batter look. If it is hit to the SS I will move across the outfield grass and then come in as much as possible without getting in the SS's way.

[mazzamouth]

Mazz, you have to remember that on sixty foot you are outside the bases. Unless the ball is hit in the SS area I will come across the the grass to get a batter look. If it is hit to the SS I will move across the outfield grass and then come in as much as possible without getting in the SS's way.

I will be completely honest here.. I have only worked 2 LL game and both were from behind the dish... so I have no idea where to stand..LOL

[Umpire in Chief]

D62 there's no good place to be on a 60' diamond. The mechanics tell us to be on the outside and when in the C you're sacrificing a lot. First, I will say I cheat closer to second base rather than a true LL C. then when I think there will be a play at first I get about 3-4 steps directly to my left, so I'm in shallow left center. IMO, that is the best angle you will be able to get. Working the outside sometimes puts you in awkward positions where you are sacrificing both angle and distance and this is one of those things. Just fight for the best you can get, make your call and you may have to go to your partner more than either of you like on pulled feet or swipe tags, but that's unfortuantely the system.

[D62 blue]

And who has the touch of R2 at third?

the PU has touch/tag at 3rd (on the runner(s) ) and try to watch the swipe or pulled foot . my mechanic for this is to drift up the 3rd base line a little bit , and try to watch both corner's 1st/3rd at the same time , can be difficult .

d62 blue

[kylejt]

Me, I'm on the first baseline extended, maybe over a base width. I'll look down the barrel of the play at first. Something's got to give on two man, and in this instance a pulled foot at first is more important to see than a missed bag at third.

Hey, who's got the touch of second, if the BU is watching the play at first? It's compromise out there, so just do your best. But the PU has to help out the BU on this one.

[mstaylor]

I disagree, the touch of third is more important than a pull at first. If they both 100% then they can get three umpires.

[Umpire in Chief]

I disagree, the touch of third is more important than a pull at first. If they both 100% then they can get three umpires.

I agree as PU your primary responsibility is the touch of third your secondary is keeping your eye on first.

The Bu's primary responsibility is the play at first, period.

If there is a swipe, pulled foot, etc and you rare covering your responsibility at 3rd just tell your partner you didn't see as you were watching the touch of third.

[kylejt]

On the big diamond I agree with you guys. PU is seeing the touch of third, and then looking down at first.

But on the small diamond, with the BU pushed behind the shortstop, you've got to play the odds. Odds are far greater for a pulled foot at first, than a missed bag at third, IMO. You can't see everything, and have to play the odds.

[JaxRolo]

On the big diamond I agree with you guys. PU is seeing the touch of third, and then looking down at first.

But on the small diamond, with the BU pushed behind the shortstop, you've got to play the odds. Odds are far greater for a pulled foot at first, than a missed bag at third, IMO. You can't see everything, and have to play the odds.

We stay in front on all of our fields.

[yawetag]

On the big diamond I agree with you guys. PU is seeing the touch of third, and then looking down at first.

But on the small diamond, with the BU pushed behind the shortstop, you've got to play the odds. Odds are far greater for a pulled foot at first, than a missed bag at third, IMO. You can't see everything, and have to play the odds.

Those odds are the same on bigger diamonds, too. That doesn't take the responsibility away, though.

[PeteBooth]

this has now happened twice in the last 6 days:wow: . this is LL diamond . im in "c" at the cut of the grass runners at least on R1 R2 , ground ball hit to infield, i close my distance a little and get my angle to 1st (angle over distance mechanic) , F3 does his stretch waiting for the throw . it is very difficult from that distance to see a pulled foot , iam basically "straight lined" .

FWIW I do not know why 60 ft. mechanics teach the BU to be in "C" position with R1 / R2.

You cannot lead-off. If R2 does try and still third base you can get almost as good as angle from B as in C.

If you were in the B slot, IMO, you would have a little more time to react and can get a better angle to see the swipe tag/ pulled foot then you can being in C.

The BU will have a difficult time from the "C" (outside the grass) on any call to the right side of the infield.

The other option is to have the PU take the call at first BUT the BU watch R2 touch third base.

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

First there is nothing wrong with being in C. The angle is the same as 90ft and the distance is close to the same.

[Mike Prince]

I work the 60 ft. field quite a bit and I tend to stay in C with R2 or R3. Biggest reason is that there is no leading or leaving early and C gives me the best view of the lead runners to make the call if needed.

If there is a play at first, I will do my best to quickly move into the working area between second base and the mound if possible (based on where the ball is) to get a better look or move to B if I can't get into the diamond and feel I have time to get there. But sometimes you just need to make the best call you can from C, if you are unsure if F3 had his foot on the bag get help from your partner then make the best call you can.

[D62 blue]

D62 there's no good place to be on a 60' diamond. The mechanics tell us to be on the outside and when in the C you're sacrificing a lot. First, I will say I cheat closer to second base rather than a true LL C. then when I think there will be a play at first I get about 3-4 steps directly to my left, so I'm in shallow left center. IMO, that is the best angle you will be able to get. Working the outside sometimes puts you in awkward positions where you are sacrificing both angle and distance and this is one of those things. Just fight for the best you can get, make your call and you may have to go to your partner more than either of you like on pulled feet or swipe tags, but that's unfortuantely the system.

since this post , i have discussed this situation with others here in my area . i have another mechanic tip that i will use next time . when in "c" outside on the LL diamond . take an angle towards the "30 ft line" . this is the half point between home and third . start towards this imaginary point from "c" at an angle to the 30 ft point, you wont make it too far , but you will improve the angle over distance mechanic . and still have to make the best call you can . and hopefully youre PU can see if you are asked depending on the call made .

d62 blue

[Umpire in Chief]

If I recall correctly, in LL you don't go in until the ball gets out of the infield.

[Dragon29]

Warren - on 60' bases, that's absolutely correct.

I really don't see what the issue here is. When you're outside on a 60' diamond, you're about as far away (put your slide rules away guys - I'm approximating) from 1B as you are when inside on a 90' diamond. When you have R2, just use a starting position a step or two to the right of 'Absolute C' and you're golden for any call you need to make.

[catoblue]

Warren - on 60' bases, that's absolutely correct.

I really don't see what the issue here is. When you're outside on a 60' diamond, you're about as far away (put your slide rules away guys - I'm approximating) from 1B as you are when inside on a 90' diamond. When you have R2, just use a starting position a step or two to the right of 'Absolute C' and you're golden for any call you need to make.

Distance is about the same, but you have a lot more going on in front of you where it is much easier to get straight-lined by a player (fielder or runner).

The inside-out, outside-in mechanic is what is taught on 60', but if the situation/play allows, you can still come in to the working area for a better view of the play at 1B.

[Guest]

The bottom line here is that there are always going to be limitations using a 2-man system for any level of play. It doesn't matter if you have two 12 year old rookies out there, or (insert your two favourite pro umpires) - someone will miss something.

Coaches need to understand this. In my experience, there have been a few situations where someone has come out to challenge a call, and all I can say is that we're limited by two guys on the field and neither umpire has the proper angle to make the call / ruling with absolute certainty. And in every single one of those instances, the person has said "fair enough" and leaves without any problem. If they want to go bananas and act like 4 year olds throwing a temper tantrum, dump them. No one needs to put up with that.

[mstaylor]

While mechanics say don't come inside, that is a basis not a rule. If the play allows you can cross inside, even if it is hit to the SS you can come in closer behind him.

[Mike Prince]

In 2 man my view has always been you do what you can to get the best view of the call without getting in the middle of the play or getting out of position for any potential extension of the play. If you can't do this you just have to make the best call you can from where you are and use your partner if you need help.