LL metality vs. a business

[PeteBooth]

Hi all:

The time limit OP prompted me for this post which will most likely generate some heated discussion.

An answer from one of the posters in the Time limit thread

but I can't think of the kids ever complaining. That's who we are supposed to be out there for anyway.

The aforementioned statement is the LL or youth ball mentality.

I am not there for the kids. I am there to make certain no team gains an unfair advantage over another not intended by the rules Plain and Simple.

If you examine the answers in the Time limit thread I would venture to guess that those that said it doesn't matter if there are 5 seconds left we start an inning are LL umpires or youth ball umpires where the saying "We are there for the kids" is more prevalent.

Another support for my reasoning is that posters called me a liar, wanting to go home early etc.etc. because in their view I am cheating the kids.

Notice the common denominator

KIDS

I am NOT speaking for Warren but from his response he like me treats umpiring as a business.

Another poster used basketball / football as a reference. IMO, bad reference and a horse of a different color.

When there is 5 seconds left in either basketball / football other then over-time there is going to be ONE more play PERIOD. Not in baseball

That 5 seconds can turn into 1/2 hour or even more so as mentioned using a basketball / football anology is absurd.

I see the DIFFERENCE when we get new umpires in our HS association that were strictly youth ball/ LL umpires and you have to break those habits. The coaches look at these new umpires with that "are you kidding look"

Case and Point: During our first HS association meeting, one of the comments from the Modified / JV divisions were that these new umpires had postage stamp strike zones. At the modified level they expect the zone to be expanded.

These new umpires feel that if they expand the zone etc. they are "cheating" the kids" but again that is the LL mentality that needs to be changed.

AS you grow into umpiring you will learn that the book strike zone is simply a reference point and the ACTUAL definition of the strike zone is that which is accepted in the leagues we service. A HS Varsity Strike zone is NOT the same as the modified strike zone played by 7th/8th graders. That's where the business aspect of umpiring comes in.

Our CUSTOMERS pay for our services and if such and such a league wants an expaned zone etc. then we oblige. IMO, that concept is the hardest for LL or youth umpires to break.

Also, regardless of what you think, a TD running a tournament does NOT expect an umpire to start an inning with 5 seconds left?

Why!

If affects his business. As I mentioned in a response on the time limit thread. you have teams that have the last game of the day and you want them to have at least 2 hours to play. If games get backed up they will only get 3/4 innings in.

THAT effects the business because next time this particular TD runs a tournament he might lose CUSTOMERS.

In a nusthell on many of these difference of opinions would stem from the LL mentality vs. the business mentality.

Ok let me have it.

Pete Booth

[tjthresh]

That all actually makes perfect sense to me.

[Umpire in Chief]

First, I do not believe Pete has said this to be disparaging to LL or youth rec umpires, but an observation of their workings/philosophy.

But I do agree to an extent with many of his points.

In my opinion it can be better be broken down into umpires who effectively manage the game and those who let the game happen around them. There are both types in all levels of ball from LL to NCAA.

As umpires, our first priority is to call the game and enforce the rules. But our secondary obligation is to manage the game. This applied from MLB to LL. We manage the people, we manage the processes, we manage the production of the game.

I've found everybody concerned appreciates an umpire who can effectively manage the game versus the umpire who goes unnoticed and just calls the game.

Why is it I can go to a 7 inning youth game which takes 3 hours to complete, but can go to a 9 inning game at Harbor Park here and watch 9 innings in the same 3 hours including the lengthened breaks for TV. The answer is effective game management.

I've taken some heat both online and on the field when I say things along the lines of "this is my game" or "this is my field." It's not only because I'm a self-aggrandizing narcissist . It is the mentality of management.

In the recent Southern Umpires Camp I attended one of the instructors (who will remain nameless) made a great analogy to a younger umpire who was fundamentally strong, but had confidence issues, most likely from his age.

The instructor asked, "Have you ever seen the movie Pulp Fiction? And do you remember the character played by Samuel L. Jackson, Jewels? Do you remember what name was on his wallet? It said Bad A$$ Mother F:censored:er. When you go out onto the field you're carrying that wallet and you are the Bad A$$ Mother F:censored:er. Regardless of your age you are in control of that ball field and you need to have that mentality."

I thought this was a pretty effective demonstration of the mentality of a strong game manager. This is not saying go out there and be an a$$, but rather go out there be strong, be confident and know how to manage the game.

[kylejt]

Me, I guess I'm proud to have the LL mentality.

Let's make this clear. If you hold the clock, and time hasn't expired once the third out is recored, but you tell a manager that it has, I'd consider it lying.

My league president, my boss, wants those games to continue if there is one second left. Just following orders, per our local rules. If your rules state that you make up stuff, and bend the clock as you see fit, more power to you.

Last week we had a game go an extra inning with ten seconds left on the clock when the third out was recorded. That last inning went for 35 minutes. Sure I wanted go home. I got plunked by the very first pitch of the game, and my arm was throbing pretty good. But the defense, knew time was running out, hustled on the field, cut their warmups, and got three quick outs. They earned the right to play another inning.

Having an umpire lie to them about the clock, or waste time by needlessly cleaning the plate, is just awful Pete. Awful. We're just going to have to disagree on this one.

[kylejt]

Here's what I mean about being there for the kids. I have about 30 Junior umpires that I'm in charge of. That's my team, and the kids I'm there for. So I'm the role model for them, and need to take the high ground every time.

If the clock says "play", we play. If I stall a game, or shave a couple minutes off the clock to end a game early, what's that saying to my team?

[semper_fi_72]

Last week we had a game go an extra inning with ten seconds left on the clock when the third out was recorded. That last inning went for 35 minutes.

kyle

Are you not using a drop dead time?

Examples

Minor - No new inning after 90 min, drop dead at 1 Hr 45.

Major - No new inning after 2 hr, drop dead 2 hr 15.

You have to use Drop Dead times to keep following games on schedule or else they won't start on time, or you will run into a curfew problem during week nights.

[kylejt]

kyle

Are you not using a drop dead time?

We suspend games at 10pm, but no drop dead times. That also leads to stalling tactics, and other such nonsense.

Our non-competetive divisions (no score kept) do have a stop time on them. That's never an issue. Only our Minors have a time limit, as it's against the rules to have them in Majors on up.

[actvii]

I'm with you on this also kyle. I don't treat umpiring as a business .Maybe I don't know every rule by heart but I know plenty enough to give the KIDS the best playing experience I can. Maybe I don't treat it like a business because I have a job and don't use umpiring to supplement my income. I do it because I remember the excitement my son got at every game. I remember how much I love being on the field. Yes I do umpire for free if I'm needed because I didn't forget what this game means to a kid. Yes I'm there for the kids. So what if I have to be there thirty minutes longer. If I don't get the next game in I'll be there for completion when it's scheduled.

[LMSANS]

Good, let's get the kids out of the way. All business...the manager sends everyone home before 5pm. A customer calls that needs immediate assistance at 1 minute to 5, no answer. The customer has to go somewhere else. one down how many to go? That same customer then calls the CEO and says, "how come when I call at 4:59, no one answers the phone?"

The CEO goes to the manager and asks the same question and is told, "I don't want any OT." Or some other nonsense. I'm sure the CEO will not mind losing the business...

This is not business, it is baseball. We have rules...

From Pete:

"I am not there for the kids. I am there to make certain no team gains an unfair advantage over another not intended by the rules Plain and Simple."

Plain and simple, you are not going by the rules, just like your FYC, but that is ok because you are the man in charge!

You have taken the rules and chosen to ignore or change them as you see fit within your agenda.

And yes you can say officiate with the book, not by the book (is that how it goes? You know what I mean). That doesn't apply here. This is not an interpretation question. The league has decided on a time frame for the games. If the game fits into that time frame, it should continue.

Our strike zone is altered according to the level we are working. Why? Because nobody wants a walkfest. This is with the book, not by the book.

There can be no resolution to these issues, but they keep coming up. This is like listening to talk radio and the idiots running the show say outrageous things just to generate more discussion.

[tiger49]

Deep breath guys. We are talking about seconds. In over 20 years of working with a time limit I have never ever heard a coach ask if we have a few seconds left. What I hear is "Do we have a minute left?"

I don't split hairs on if we have 5, 10 or 15 seconds left. Why? Cause we keep track of the clock time at the start. First pitch comes in...call it...check watch and alert to the time. Do I know the exact time to the second that the pitch left F1 hand? No Never...and Never Will. Why? Cause I am watching the pitch, I have to call it, that is what I am there for! Also if you figure there is 3 coaches on each team, each with a watch. That would mean 7 different people have the time, and all will have a different time.

If baseball needed a timekeeper there would be a section in the rule book, also there would be a clock on the scoreboard that would have a running time on the game. Even in the MLB if you check the length of game stats they don't list the number of seconds. Just the number of hours and minutes.

[Umpire in Chief]

I don't want to be misunderstood. Managing the game well and the playing experience for those involved are neither mutually exclusive or collectively exhaustive. There are numerous other qualities which go into the equation; personality, appearance, assertiveness, approachability, knowledge, hustle, the list goes on and on and includes things beyond the umpires control like weather, the teams record...

You can manage the heck out of a game and if the defense can't catch a cold, then you're going to have a long day no matter what. Or you can be "there for the kids" and get 7 complete in 1:15.

I also do not think that those who are "there for the kids" are intentionally bending the rules any more than the "business" folks. I think it is more about their perception of life and their experiences, including outside of umpiring.

[kylejt]

Deep breath guys. We are talking about seconds. In over 20 years of working with a time limit I have never ever heard a coach ask if we have a few seconds left. What I hear is "Do we have a minute left?"

Simple question then:

No new inning after two hours.

Game start is 7pm.

The third out of the bottom of the inning is recorded at 8:59pm, according your time piece.

Do you start another inning?

If not, why not?

[Mr Umpire]

I just find it funny how many think it's OK to manipulate some and not all. Where does the line get drawn? Strike zone is mentioned. It's OK to alter the zone but not the time. Funny argument. Again, no interpretation there. It may be different for each batter but the concept is the same. And, I find the argument for situational reasons to alter things as BS. You are either altering them or not. No in between ground, at all.

I find it hard to believe that some rules have not been bent in each poster's game at some point in time.

Honestly, can any say they have not bent a rule or saw something differently b/c of the situation? I'm looking for honesty whether you tell everyone or not. That is up to you whether you want to be honest with everyone here or not.

These kind of threads are not going to change anyone's mind no matter how many are made. I am just wondering how many are willing to be honest and admit their faults now. Even if it does hijack this thread or create a new one and call it "How I have cheated the kids players". Now, look in the mirror and be honest with yourself. Then, try being honest on here.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[semper_fi_72]

Simple question then:

No new inning after two hours.

Game start is 7pm.

The third out of the bottom of the inning is recorded at 8:59pm, according your time piece.

Do you start another inning?

If not, why not?

No we are not starting another inning.

Defensive team will not take field and be ready to throw a pitch in 1 minute.

Until the first pitch is thrown, the inning has not officially started.

[semper_fi_72]

We suspend games at 10pm, but no drop dead times. That also leads to stalling tactics, and other such nonsense.

Our non-competetive divisions (no score kept) do have a stop time on them. That's never an issue. Only our Minors have a time limit, as it's against the rules to have them in Majors on up.

Saturday

Game scheduled to start every 2.5 hours.

How do you keep your games on schedule?

If it is against the rules to have time limits, then why is there a drop dead time, dictated by the league, in 5 different leagues within our District for Majors and Juniors.

[catoblue]

I'm all volunteer, all the time at this point in my umpiring career. I volunteer "for the kids".

By "for the kids", I mean this - no umpires, means no games, so I volunteer to call games for the local LL.

I know the rules, I also know the local rules. I don't bend rules for my own personal convenience.

We have a 2 hour time limit that simply states "a new inning shall not be started after 2 hours from scheduled game start time"... no drop-dead times are provided for. So, if the 6th out of an inning is recorded before 2 hours has gone by, we are, by rule, already in the next inning and play it (unless it is too dark to play, then the rule book determines if we meet the criteria for a complete game or if we suspend play).

I'm not on the clock, my pay stays at $0 regardless of how long I'm on the field, so I simply play the game as provided by the rules.

Now to the business part of the equation - to me that means exactly what UIC talked about: Game Management. Being there "for the kids" (and I am, which is why I volunteer) and effective game management are NOT mutually exclusive.

Pete said

I am there to make certain no team gains an unfair advantage over another not intended by the rules

...and that is absolutely correct! Why can't that statement be rewritten to read: "I am here for the kids, to make certain no team gains an unfair advantage over another not intended by the rules". I'm certainly not there for the coaches or parents - or even for my self, for that matter (there are lots of other things I would enjoy doing with that unpaid time - especially fishing)

I really AM there for the kids. LL parents are a festering blister on the a$$ of youth sports, and I really don't care if daddy coach has a cold one with his name on it waiting for him and wants the game over so he can get to it... If we're in the next inning before 2 hours is up, we're playing.

Ump_24, you said:

Being "there for the kids" to me means that the umpire probably

A) won't know the actual rules in the first place

B) will bend the rules he does know so that everyone has fun

C) will "coach" a player when they make a mistake, etc etc

I am there for the kids and

A) I know the rules

B) I enforce the rules

C) I hung up my coach's hat after last season, and when I did call games during my 15 years of coaching, that coaching hat got left at the house. When I am umpiring, it is not my job to coach the kids that I am there for, it is my job to call the game for the kids.

I guess the real question here is: What does "I'm here for the kids" mean to you?

To me, it means the kids are what motivates me to volunteer to call games a couple nights/week and Saturday mornings, when I could be out in the boat fishing. My motivation for being there, has nothing to do with the way I manage a game, enforce the rules, or conduct myself on the field.

Like any "label", most people are more complex than what those labels allow for. When I think about myself and labels, I am a walking, talking contradiction. Depending on the conversation, I could be seen as a conservative or a liberal, a redneck or a nerd, an office worker or a mechanic... or in this case, an umpire with a LL and a business mentality.

That's my long-winded :wave:

[JaxRolo]

No we are not starting another inning.

Defensive team will not take field and be ready to throw a pitch in 1 minute.

Until the first pitch is thrown, the inning has not officially started.

This is exactly what our association teaches. Whether its right or wrong - who knows.

[Mr Umpire]

By "for the kids", I mean this - no umpires, means no games, so I volunteer to call games for the local LL.

Out of all this, I only have 1 issue with your post. That part is not true, or at least, it shouldn't be. There are lots of games going on right now with no umpires.

Everything else, to each their own. I don't volunteer anymore b/c I don't have to volunteer to umpire games anymore.

[JaxRolo]

We have a 2 hour time limit that simply states "a new inning shall not be started after 2 hours from scheduled game start time"... no drop-dead times are provided for. So, if the 6th out of an inning is recorded before 2 hours has gone by, we are, by rule, already in the next inning and play it (unless it is too dark to play, then the rule book determines if we meet the criteria for a complete game or if we suspend play).

When you say by rule can you reference this to something?

We are told that you are not officially in the next inning until the first pitch is thrown.

By the way I don't mind staying there an extra inning. It is just what we are told to do.

[kylejt]

No we are not starting another inning.

Defensive team will not take field and be ready to throw a pitch in 1 minute.

Until the first pitch is thrown, the inning has not officially started.

Actually, the new inning starts as soon as the third out is recorded. So that's when you need to look at the clock. It's not like the start of the game, which begins at the first pitch.

[semper_fi_72]

Actually, the new inning starts as soon as the third out is recorded. So that's when you need to look at the clock. It's not like the start of the game, which begins at the first pitch.

You are absolutely correct by the book.

I am living in the real world where a new game starts in 15 minutes.

[Mr Umpire]

When you say by rule can you reference this to something?

We are told that you are not officially in the next inning until the first pitch is thrown.

By the way I don't mind staying there an extra inning. It is just what we are told to do.

Only by inference of the definition of an Inning in OBR 2.00 can that assumption be made unless someone knows of it being defined elsewhere. A team's at-bat ends when 3 are put out. If an inning ends, another begins unless the game is over by rule.

[semper_fi_72]

When you say by rule can you reference this to something?

We are told that you are not officially in the next inning until the first pitch is thrown.

By the way I don't mind staying there an extra inning. It is just what we are told to do.

Jax

The rule is set by each league, so the argument of what every one does with time limits is mute. We simply follow what the league wants and which is always covered at the plate meeting.

I actually have had to resort to writing each leagues time limits on 3x5 cards, which I keep in the car, so I can refresh my memory. I also list any other league specific requirements/rules.

I also would stay. In fact I am usually there for the next game waiting to start. I am in no hurry to leave.

I have had two Adult teams recently ask if they could continue to play and if we would call the game for them after enforcing a mercy rule after 7 inning.

The answer was no!!!, the league will not cover anyone insurance wise because the game is officially over and in the books.

[Paperipper17]

I'm with Semper Fi on this one...If there's another game starting in 15 minutes, I'll call it a minute or two before the time limit. The one time I decided to let it continue, we had a 30 minute inning with about 12 total runs scored and the 8:15 game didn't start until 8:35. These games count for nothing in the grand scheme of things. My job is to keep things running smoothly, and that doesn't include getting the next one started 20 minutes late.

[Umpire in Chief]

Going back to the "there for the kids" vs "business like"

Think of it terms of something outside of umpiring that hopefully we can relate, our bosses.

I've had bosses who have been technically incredible, but are socially backwards. They have ended up failing more often than not because they can not relate their incredible knowledge and know-how to other people effectively.

Similarly, I've had bosses which are complete slave-drivers B). Inflexible to anything but the bottom line. Who get things accomplished but at what cost. These people end up ticking the wrong person off and not working out.

Then I've had bosses who are social butterflies, or even sycophants who can talk and charm their way out of any situation. These people cant keep their rouse up for too long and are later seen for what they really are or are not and fail.

Then there is the boss I'm looking for. They are effective leaders, managers, communicators, motivators and can take the strengths of the different types of people and bring it together B). I've had the fortune of having one boss like this. This is the boss and umpire I aspire to be.