LL metality vs. a business

[JaxRolo]

Thanks Mr Umpire and Semper Fi,

Those are my thoughts on both or your replies.

Some assume that the inning starts on the First Pitch and Some assume that the innings starts after the last out.

Like Semper Fi said, some leagues dictate the Rule.

Our Association also says that the clock starts immediately after the Home Plate Meeting. I know most of you will disagree with that. But the leagues and associations here agree to it.

[PeteBooth]

Actually, the new inning starts as soon as the third out is recorded. So that's when you need to look at the clock. It's not like the start of the game, which begins at the first pitch

.

Since we are talking rules let's stick to them

OBR 8.03 F1 gets 8 warm-up throws NOT to exceeed 1 minute. Therefore, techically speeking if we have a rule that says no NEW inning shall start after 1:50 and we complete 6 innings in 1:49 then BY rule the game ends because the top of 7 will not start until at least 1:50 or better and according to RULE we do not START a new inning when we reach 1:50

FED has a rule that says one minute timed from the third out.

In a nusthell the new inning TECHNICALLY starts when the offense comes to bat.

We do not "STOP THE CLOCK" for down-time. In other words according to your way of thinking Whenever a coach requests time to talk to F1 we should STOP the CLOCK or whenever he changes F1's or F2 the clock should stop.

When you have 1 minute left after say 6 complete innings the game is OVER because by RULE the team has one minute to complete their warm-up throws and by the time the offense comes to bat we would have reached the time limit.

Pete Booth

[catoblue]

When you say by rule can you reference this to something?

We are told that you are not officially in the next inning until the first pitch is thrown.

By the way I don't mind staying there an extra inning. It is just what we are told to do.

Straight from the LL rule book (what Kyle and I both work from):

2.00 An INNING is that portion of a game within which the teams alternate on offense and defense and in which there are three putouts for each team. Each team's time at bat is a half-inning. It will be held that an inning starts the moment the third out is made completing the preceding inning.

Edited March 24, 2010 by catoblue

[JaxRolo]

Straight from the LL rule book:

2.00 An INNING is that portion of a game within which the teams alternate on offense and defense and in which there are three putouts for each team. Each team's time at bat is a half-inning. It will be held that an inning starts the moment the third out is made completing the preceding inning.

I looked it up on MLB.com and the bolded part is not in the 2.00 rule.

[Umpire in Chief]

I looked it up on MLB.com and the bolded part is not in the 2.00 rule.

The bold is LL specific.

[catoblue]

The bold is LL specific.

Correct, and that is where I umpire - as does kylejet. LL is probably the place where time-limited games are most prevalent - and likely the reason that the bold part was added to the rule as a point of clarification. While there is no time limit rule in LL official rules, I'd hazard a guess that un-timed games are the exception to the norm.

[Mr Umpire]

Correct, and that is where I umpire - as does kylejet. LL is probably the place where time-limited games are most prevalent - and likely the reason that the bold part was added to the rule as a point of clarification. While there is no time limit rule in LL official rules, I'd hazard a guess that un-timed games are the exception to the norm.

I doubt un-timed ones are exceptions. Isn't the LLWS un-timed? Local rules put in time limits. This is true for those who play under OBR, Pony, FED, NCAA. If the locals put in a time, then that is on the local leagues. And, those times will vary depending on the local league. In fact, who cares when an inning begins except in the case of a timed game.

What LL put in is just the wording which is inferred from the definition of an inning.

[Mr Umpire]

I am waiting for the day this guy will admit, for once, that he is wrong.

LOL. :spit:

[Dragon29]

As a long-time LL umpire who also works other organization's games for money, I'd like to offer that two things can be equally true:

You can be there for the kids.

You can run your game like a business using good game management.

These are not mutually exclusive functions.

It's pure hubris on the part of the 'paid' umpire to believe that volunteers (LL or otherwise) simply have no knowledge of the rules, game management or any other aspect of umpiring. It's also extremely insulting to those of us who work either some or all volunteer games and are damned good at what we do.

However, it's absolute naivete on the part of the volunteer to believe that sticking to every jot and tittle of the rules in the book (or those proffered by local leagues) is always the right thing to do and that there's no room for the type of game management espoused by some of the paid umpires who have posted on this topic.

There's a middle ground - room for compromise - between these two philosophies.

Find it.

[Mr Umpire]

As a long-time LL umpire who also works other organization's games for money, I'd like to offer that two things can be equally true:

You can be there for the kids.

You can run your game like a business using good game management.

These are not mutually exclusive functions.

It's pure hubris on the part of the 'paid' umpire to believe that volunteers (LL or otherwise) simply have no knowledge of the rules, game management or any other aspect of umpiring. It's also extremely insulting to those of us who work either some or all volunteer games and are damned good at what we do.

However, it's absolute naivete on the part of the volunteer to believe that sticking to every jot and tittle of the rules in the book (or those proffered by local leagues) is always the right thing to do and that there's no room for the type of game management espoused by some of the paid umpires who have posted on this topic.

There's a middle ground - room for compromise - between these two philosophies.

Find it.

Agreed. Interesting none who are arguing for/against the concepts could see this. Good thing I stayed out of the "meat" of the arguments. Saved me from making a regrettable statement about either party.

[kylejt]

By LL rule, and this was just reinforced to us by Western Region yesterday, there are no time limits for Majors, and up. So we're only talking about competive Minors for LL.

[Umpire in Chief]

Guy's I'd like to steer this back to game management philosophies between "there for the kids" and "business like" philosophies with being an overly officious moderator

I think we've killed the time limit thing :spit:

[kylejt]

Well, why do you go out and buy a proper uniform?

Well, I'll tell you why I wear a plate coat for a LL Majors game. The T-Ball Moms think I'm hot. How many of you have get requests to have their pictures take with them?

The He// with the kids, I'm there for the T-Ball Moms!

[Dragon29]

ump_24,

While the portion of my post you bold-faced was in response to your earlier post, it's not the first time I've seen that kind of thought expressed on this, or other, umpire web-sites. So, I was not responding directly to you personally, just to that idea.

After reading your response, I respectfully submit that you missed my point entirely. You're still in the business of classifying or categorizing by title. It's a waste of time and energy.

K.I.S.S.

Good umpires are good.

Bad umpires are bad.

That's all the categorization you need.

[Mr Umpire]

To the topic at hand:

LL is both "for the kids" and a business. They provide an atmosphere which allows kids to play baseball in an organized manner. Instead of worrying about who is on whose team and if they have enough to do what on the ball field, LL takes the guess work out of it and lets the kids just go out to have fun. LL is "for the kids".

On the flip side, LL is a business. They have their fundraisers, tournaments, and any other means to raise money. If they didn't, they probably wouldn't have a dedicated staff in Williamsport to handle issues during tournaments, especially in today's economy.

Umpiring is (or should be) both "for the kids" when kids are involved and a business. While the game is going, make it fun and enjoyable for the kids. Don't call things which have no business being called based on the level of play. Don't confuse them nor ruin their fun if at all possible. Let the kids enjoy as much of it as possible. Baseball is a great game UNTIL adults participate in it. Prime example is a sand lot game. If something happens, kids usually sort it out fairly. No hard feelings and everyone goes home happy unless their team lost. Now, organized ball and who is the first to be yelling "Come on, blue". It isn't the kids.

However, umpiring is also a business. Part of a business is [game] time management. I ask the ones who are opposed to the idea of stopping a game slightly early. What about the kids who are supposed to play in the next game or have school the next day? Shouldn't they have a chance to enjoy the game at their scheduled time and not suffer for a decision an adult made to prolong it from them? The teams on the field have had their time to enjoy the game. Isn't it time for the next set to enjoy their time? Not everything is in "black and white". It has nothing to do with you [the adult]. Again, kids would just say "Let us finish this last little bit and you can have the field" when it is time to get off of it. I will repeat this again. Baseball is a great game UNTIL adults participate in it.

I understand both sides and what their points about LL and also, time limits. In an ideal world, there would be no time limits on any games. All innings would be played and none of this would come about. But, we don't live in an ideal world. Time limits are put in place for a reason. Some take it as "I won't have to stay for a marathon b/c the kids quit enjoying themselves after so long". Some look at it as "All will get an equal time to play the game and I need to manage things accordingly to make that possible". Others see the time limit as a hindrance and think "I am going to get as much as I can out of the game at hand even if it means running 30 minutes behind".

All of these thoughts have some truth to them. All have merit and good intentions. There is middle ground to them all. If it is a marathon, put it out of its misery. The kids, coaches, parents, and umpires aren't having fun. Why drag it out? Get the game over and let the next set come out.

If it has been a descent game and everyone enjoyed themselves, let all of the kids have equal shots at playing a full game within the allotted time. If it is 1:49 out 1:50 and both teams have had an equal amount of at-bats and played very well up to that point, they have had their time to enjoy the game. They did what they could and had fun while doing it. Let the other group come out and enjoy their time at the scheduled time and not at some odd hour of the night just b/c the adults didn't want to go home.

Now, for the final one, if it is a 1 run game and both teams have been working hard to take the lead, most innings have been about 5 to 10 minutes. Then, why not let them go another inning with 1 to 2 minutes left. At most, the next game is 5 minutes behind and nobody is worse off. If any marathons occur, kill them early to put it out of its misery and get back on schedule.

I don't deem any of those thoughts as "lying about the time" or "cheating umpires" or "being selfish and not caring about the kids outside of my current game". I, for one, do not want to continue umpiring a 19-2 game if I can do something to end it. Also, I don't want to stop a 5-3 ball game if both teams are hustling and doing what they can to play the game and win with the average inning only lasting 10-15 minutes long.

Some do just look at it as a paycheck and want to go home early. Or, are just out there just to be out there. They are the ones most of us don't want to umpire with. They look unprofessional. Don't know the rules. Call things which have no business being addressed. Won't call things which do need to be called. Chit chat with a player for 30 or 40 seconds and it always seems to be the pitcher. Don't know when to quit coaching and just umpire. Let the coaches handle that. They are the ones I can't stand to be on the ball field with.

You may not agree with my assessment and that is OK. But, I am going to take each situation and determine how I need to manage that game to keep things right. And, by "right", I mean what is right for the current game's kids and the next game's kids. I am NOT concerned with any of the following games' coaches or umpires. I am not concerned with what my partner wants to do b/c he may be one of those "paycheck please" kind of umpires. I am concerned about myself and the game's participants.

Baseball is a great game UNTIL adults participate in it.

[JaxRolo]

I think we've killed the time limit thing

Agree :D

[Mr Umpire]

Guy's I'd like to steer this back to game management philosophies between "there for the kids" and "business like" philosophies with being an overly officious moderator

I think we've killed the time limit thing

Actually, I think they go "hand in hand" though some were focused only on the time limit issue.

[mstaylor]

WOW, talk about coming into a thread late. I am both a volunteer and a paid official. I started out working simply because they needed somebody. I found out I enjoyed it and eventually moved to the paid side. I still do both. I started doing it as a "For the kids" umpire. As I worked more and started training I got more polished and better at what I did. However, I ALWAYS dressed the part and took umpiring very seriously.

I have since found that whenever I hear the phrase, "It's about the kids" there is a jerk very close. It is usually a coach that just got caught trying to bend or break a rule. I have since quit using the phrase.

I don't care if you are paid or unpaid, there are good umpires, bad umpires, guys that try to get through games without making waves and guys who call every stupid rule that comes up.

I have stated my view on the time limits so I will go no further there. There is a big difference between calling by the book/calling with the book and being a rules Nazi/bending the rules to suit your agenda.

There are times to call the rules as written and times to use a more relaxed view. The areas I am speaking of has been covered many times and are normal in the course of a game.

[carolinablue]

I agree with UMP-24 in that there are very very few true " for the kids " umpires. To me that would be the guy who shows up to watch the game and reluctantly ends up on the field calling balls and strikes behind the mound because if he didn't there would not be a game.

As for the rest of us, and us meaning the ones who frequent these forums and go to clinics and such, regardless of if you are paid or unpaid, we do it mainly for ourselves. We love the game, we love the social aspect of it, and we love the challange. We want to look sharp, know the rules and it drives us crazy if we kick one into left field or have a bad game behind the plate.

Let's face it, no 50 bucks is worth the potential aggravation an umpire faces whe he walks onto the field, you have got to love it . We may vary in opinion at times, but at the end of the day we all have the same spirit in us.

[mstaylor]

I agree with UMP-24 in that there are very very few true " for the kids " umpires. To me that would be the guy who shows up to watch the game and reluctantly ends up on the field calling balls and strikes behind the mound because if he didn't there would not be a game.

As for the rest of us, and us meaning the ones who frequent these forums and go to clinics and such, regardless of if you are paid or unpaid, we do it mainly for ourselves. We love the game, we love the social aspect of it, and we love the challange. We want to look sharp, know the rules and it drives us crazy if we kick one into left field or have a bad game behind the plate.

Let's face it, no 50 bucks is worth the potential aggravation an umpire faces whe he walks onto the field, you have got to love it . We may vary in opinion at times, but at the end of the day we all have the same spirit in us.

You are absolutely correct. Although there is a portion of it that is about helping out leagues and the kids in it, we have a sense of pride in what we do and that is what keeps us coming back, buying equipment, going to clinics and surfing the internet in search of knowledge.

I assure you I get as much, if not more, enjoyment from teaching new guys how to survive in this crazy world we choose for ourselves. I still want to keep working games but there will come a time where I will be happy being the guy in the background.