Base Awards

[Lhaber9]

I was looking for the answer to where to place the runners in this scenario.

With a runner on first no outs, the batter hits a fly ball to right field. R1 stays close to the bag (believing it may be caught). BR charges down the line. The ball is not caught in right field and R1 starts running to second. F9 picks up the ball and throws wildly towards third base to stop R1 from advancing. At the time of the throw both R1 and BR are between 1B and 2B because of R1's late break. The ball sails over third base out of play. Place the runners.

On a throw from the outfield each runner should get 2 bases from the time that the fielder releases the ball. This would place both runners at third. Would you place the runners at second and third? or would R1 score and BR be at third? what would happen in this situation?

[Ump29]

Score R1 and place BR on 3rd.

[carolinablue]

That's a great question. I'm going to say R1 goes to 3B and BR goes to 2B since 2 runners cannot occupy the same base. If you score R1 then you are awarding 3 bases from time of throw, and I don't know of any rule that allows that on an overthrow. There may be an interp. or case play that I am not aware of.

[BrianC14]

This is not a matter of interpretation. This is a matter of black & white rules.

From Time of Throw, base awards for the ball going into dead ball territory are two bases from the base last occupied at the time of throw.

Put R1 on 3rd, and B/R on 2nd.

[mstaylor]

Brian and Carolina are correct, second and third.

[1dumbquestion]

I know I'm late to the party but I'm a little confused, the OP says BR was passed 1st when the throw was made and since the BR was not put out prior to reaching 1st then R1 had lost his right (was forced) to the base. so when BR reached 1st hadn't he "legally acquired" the base and then would be awarded 3rd on the oop throw forcing R1 home? sorry for the run on sentences, 1

[actvii]

I agree with ump29, R1 has to be within a step of 2nd he has this base. The award is two bases,if you don't score R1 then BR is only awarded one base.

[SNIPERBBB]

There is no way to "force" R1 home, its not a force play. R1 does not get a bonus just because there is a runner behind him/her.

[1dumbquestion]

SNIPER... I may be totally wrong on the award for the OP, that would not surprise me at all,... but a runner can definitely be "forced" by the award of a following runner. ie OBS, 1

[BrianC14]

I agree with ump29, R1 has to be within a step of 2nd he has this base. The award is two bases,if you don't score R1 then BR is only awarded one base.

This is incorrect. Being "within a step" of the base is not the basis for making awards. The runner has to have legally acquired the advance base - being "within a step" is meaningless.

The award is based on where the runner was at the time of throw - in other words, what base he had last legally acquired. In this situation, you award 2 bases to R1, so he gets third. In spite of B/R having touched first, he's getting second. Base awards are made based on where the farthest runner advanced, not the trailing runner.

[1dumbquestion]

BrainC, how come the book says "each runner" when talking about base awards? I'm still learning so go easy on me. does the J/R have a simular sitch? 1

[BrianC14]

BrainC, how come the book says "each runner" when talking about base awards? I'm still learning so go easy on me. does the J/R have a simular sitch? 1

"Each runner" - i.e., R2 would be awarded home; R1 would be awarded third.

[1dumbquestion]

but in the OP there was not an R2 only and R1 and a BR so in this case the BR does not? get the 2 base award?

[BrianC14]

but in the OP there was not an R2 only and R1 and a BR so in this case the BR does not? get the 2 base award?

I understand that - but I was pointing out that the "each runner" aspect is not an absolute.

Read OBR, 7.05(g) Comment.

Well, hell, here it is: (it should sound familiar...)

7.05(g) Comment: In certain circumstances it is impossible to award a runner two bases. Example: Runner on first. Batter hits fly to short right. Runner holds up between first and second and batter comes around first and pulls up behind him. Ball falls safely. Outfielder, in throwing to first, throws ball into stand.

APPROVED RULING: Since no runner, when the ball is dead, may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled, the runner originally on first base goes to third base and the batter is held at second base.

You give beer.

[1dumbquestion]

I will Happily buy you a beer! thanks for your help. While I'm busy misunderstanding rules can you help with this simple sitch... R1, B2 lines out to F6 who attemps to double up R1 who is retreating to 1st ball goes out of play do you award R1 3rd as this is the second play or is the catch not considered a play and R1 to 2nd. thanks, 1

[NovaScotiaBlue]

Hey there dumbquestion (and we know there are none of those here) by definition, making a catch is not a play. A play is the act of the defence to try and retire an offensive player. The throw would be the first play. Since the throw was from the infield and went out of play mand it's the 1st oplay by and infielder, we as umpires would award 2 bases from time of pitch. Put him on third.

[BrianC14]

Hey there dumbquestion (and we know there are none of those here) by definition, making a catch is not a play. A play is the act of the defence to try and retire an offensive player. The throw would be the first play. Since the throw was from the infield and went out of play mand it's the 1st oplay by and infielder, we as umpires would award 2 bases from time of pitch. Put him on third.

And there you go.

One more thing to remember about base awards, especially with multiple runners on base:

Always instruct the lead runner first to move to "x" base; e.g., on a 2-base award, with R2 and R1:

To R2: "You, go home."

Then to R1: "You, go to third."

[mazzamouth]

I will Happily buy you a beer! thanks for your help. While I'm busy misunderstanding rules can you help with this simple sitch... R1, B2 lines out to F6 who attemps to double up R1 who is retreating to 1st ball goes out of play do you award R1 3rd as this is the second play or is the catch not considered a play and R1 to 2nd. thanks, 1

in this play the catch is not considered a "play" so the R1 would be placed on 2nd...1 base for the 1st play in the infield.

[mazzamouth]

Hey there dumbquestion (and we know there are none of those here) by definition, making a catch is not a play. A play is the act of the defence to try and retire an offensive player. The throw would be the first play. Since the throw was from the infield and went out of play mand it's the 1st oplay by and infielder, we as umpires would award 2 bases from time of pitch. Put him on third.

2 bases from the time of pitch? where do you get this stuff...

1 base for the 1st play on the infield, 2 bases for the 2nd play, or a throw from the outfield.

and this goes from the last legally touched base.

[noumpere]

2 bases from the time of pitch? where do you get this stuff...

1 base for the 1st play on the infield, 2 bases for the 2nd play, or a throw from the outfield.

and this goes from the last legally touched base.

WTF? Not even close.

A throw from the field is ALWAYS two bases -- it might be TOP or TOT. (In the OP, it's TOP, but the award in that particular case is the same.)

A throw from a pitcher (on the rubber) is one base.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

Hey Mazza..

To answer your question... I get this stuff from OBR and the training I get here in Canada. As you are aware there are a number of base award situations, 1,2,3 and 4 base awards. In dealing with the situation presented here we are dealing with a throw from an infielder that goes out of play. This is always a 2 BASE AWARD. To get further into it (and maybe making it more complicated than it needs to be) I also consider whether it is the 1st play or the second play by and infielder Eg: back end of a double play.

OBR rule 7.05 G lays it out pretty clearly

7.05 Each runner including the batter runner may, without liability to be put out advance...

(G) 2 bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field) or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators, The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be goverened by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made.

So I might ask you the same question....where do you get this stuff??

1 base for the 1st play on the infield. In my mind If this call was protested you would lose

2 bases for the 2nd play, or a throw from the outfield. (Correct)

and this goes from the last legally touched base. (Not so correct)

[Finnblue]

R2, batter hits groundball to F6, who catches it, looks the R2 back to the bag and then promptly throws the ball into the 1st base dugout. I, BU, award BR second and R2 home. And then try to explain DC the ruling, why R2 scored... Where do they get these 1+1 ideas?

What came to my mind, is F6's forcefull looking R2 back to the base considered "a play"? The result would have been same anyway, TOT or TOP.

MS

[Umpire in Chief]

R2, batter hits groundball to F6, who catches it, looks the R2 back to the bag and then promptly throws the ball into the 1st base dugout. I, BU, award BR second and R2 home. And then try to explain DC the ruling, why R2 scored... Where do they get these 1+1 ideas?

What came to my mind, is F6's forcefull looking R2 back to the base considered "a play"? The result would have been same anyway, TOT or TOP.

MS

You got the award correct. BR goes to second R2 scores and in your example it didn't matter too much about TOP or TOT.

In your play looking at the fielder wouldn't be considered making a play. He needs to be making an attempt to retire the runner, just as fielding a ball isn't considered making a play.

All balls thrown out of play by a fielder are 2 bases, period. The question mark comes when at what point does it become a TOT situation.

The answer is:

1. The second play by an infielder
   
2. A throw by an outfielder
   
3. When the ball is thrown out of play on the first throw by an infielder and at the TOT all runners including the BR have advanced 1 base.
   

But we also need to understand what 7.05(g) means by the word 'play". Rule 2.0 does not define play. By interpretation it has become generally accepted that in this case play means a legitimate attempt to put out the runner in the judgement of the umpire. A look or feint wouldn't qualify because you can not be expected to put a runner out with a look or feint.

[noumpere]

What came to my mind, is F6's forcefull looking R2 back to the base considered "a play"? The result would have been same anyway, TOT or TOP.

MS

No, it's not a play. I'm surprised you didn't learn that in Texas.

[Finnblue]

No, it's not a play. I'm surprised you didn't learn that in Texas.

Noumpere:

My English isn't perfect and also I try to improve my skills as an umpire as much as it is possible from this far corner of Europe. So, please don't patronize me.

So far this forum has not been spoiled by arrogance (especially by US umpires) and I wish it will say that way.

Here it is good to get some support and help when needed and good conversation with fellow umpires. Let's keep it that way.

Your umpiring friend

Mika

P.S. I have to make this public, because you don't (want?) to receive private messages.