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Lhaber9

By Lhaber9
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mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

Finn:

I didn't read noumpire as a negative, I read it as genuinlly surprised. I may be reading it wrong, not sure.

Everybody:

A linedrive catch is a play, what am I missing? It is always two bases from the field.

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Mr Umpire

Mr Umpire

Posted
Posted

Finn:

I didn't read noumpire as a negative, I read it as genuinlly surprised. I may be reading it wrong, not sure.

Everybody:

A linedrive catch is a play, what am I missing? It is always two bases from the field.

Mike,

Catching a fly ball is not a play. Here is the definition straight from MLBUM.

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner.

The catching of the line drive is not a play. Simply b/c the defensive player doesn't have possession of it until after he catches it. This is why a play is considered after the fielder has the ball. Also, this is why fielding a ground ball is not considered to be a play.

Otherwise, all throws would be the 2nd play. Therefore, this is why the extra part about "possession" is put in to differentiate between a play and merely getting the ball.

Mr Umpire

Mr Umpire

Posted
Posted

Mazza,

2 bases from the field, 1 base from the mound. That motto clears it up when F6 throws the ball out of play or F1 does on a pickoff play.

Also, the awarding of bases usually begins with where to place the lead runner in accordance of the rules. And, then place all following runners after that. In the OP, R1 only gets 3B since he was the lead runner. Any other awards such as OBS apply to the runner affected first. Thus, if BR was obstructed and would be awarded 3B, then R1 scores.

These are general statements and do not cover every situation. But, they do cover the placement of R1 in the OP.

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

Noumpere:

My English isn't perfect and also I try to improve my skills as an umpire as much as it is possible from this far corner of Europe. So, please don't patronize me.

I'm not patronizing you and I would never make fun of someone because English isn't his or her first language.

And, I try not to be arrogant. I am blunt however. And I don't apologize for that.

Lhaber9

Lhaber9

Posted
  • Author
Posted

2 bases from the time of pitch? where do you get this stuff...

This is my favorite misconception. this is what every little league coach has told me and they are all wrong. base awards on a throw from a fielder are always 2 bases. 1 base awards only happen on throws from the pitcher (if he is on the mound).

If the pitcher disengages the pitchers plate, turns and throws over F3 out of play, its 2 bases. but if the pitcher uses a spin move, or brings his leg straight up and throws to third out of play, it is one base. For example in the yankees game during the playoffs last week, the yankees pitcher pitched the ball, it bouned off the catcher and went out of play, it was a one base award.

One other time that there is a one base award is if a fielder catches a ball and in doing so falls over a side wall completly out of play. With less than 2 outs this is a one base award for all runners. i dont know of any more 1 base award but i would be interested in hearing more.

Also, does anyone know about 3 base awards? im pretty sure that if a fielder removes their gloves and throws it at a ball in play, and the glove makes contact with the ball, it is a dead ball and three basesfor all runners. Is this correct? thanks

Umpire in Chief

Umpire in Chief

Posted
Posted

Throwing it out intentionally, that is something I haven't thought about and doesn't seem to be covered in 7.05.

I would rule it 2 bases from TOP. Here's why: Well the ball was thrown out by a fielder and the intent is secondary so we definitely have 2 bases. We need to determine from TOP or TOT. This appears to be the first play by the fielder - TOP. Also, 7.05(h) gives us a situation where a catcher kicks one out (intent not mentioned) as 2 from TOP. Then just to bastardize things a bit in FED we have the intentional catch and carry which is 2 from TOP. Which I would liken intentionally throwing a ball out of play.

DirtyDawg

DirtyDawg

Posted
Posted

That is with me guessing that the play is happening from the outfield. I just can't see an infielder throwing a ball intentionally out of the stands unless he is just trying to piss off his coach.

Mr Umpire

Mr Umpire

Posted
Posted

Also, does anyone know about 3 base awards? im pretty sure that if a fielder removes their gloves and throws it at a ball in play, and the glove makes contact with the ball, it is a dead ball and three basesfor all runners. Is this correct? thanks

It is not a dead ball. Play is live with awards made after the play is over. BR has the opportunity to try for HP on the play if he reaches 3B on the play. 7.05(B)

Mr Umpire

Mr Umpire

Posted
Posted

One other time that there is a one base award is if a fielder catches a ball and in doing so falls over a side wall completly out of play. With less than 2 outs this is a one base award for all runners. i dont know of any more 1 base award but i would be interested in hearing more.

Detached equipment on the pitch. It happened earlier this year on the Tigers or Yanks(I believe). I think it was one of the Molina brothers. He used his mask to corral a ball after the pitch and the umpires awarded 1 base on it.

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

I am going to check with some bigger dogs than me but the first play is anything that legitimately retires a runner, doesn't a catch do that? I realize a grounder or bouncing ball is not a play but a catch should be. I will get back with an answer.

Mr Umpire

Mr Umpire

Posted
Posted

I am going to check with some bigger dogs than me but the first play is anything that legitimately retires a runner, doesn't a catch do that? I realize a grounder or bouncing ball is not a play but a catch should be. I will get back with an answer.

Catching a line drive isn't retiring a runner. It is retiring a BR. I know it is semantics of when does a batter become a runner but that is why there are so many different rules between a BR and just a runner. One which comes to mind immediately is OBS on a BR before he gets to 1B vs. a runner before he gets to his immediate next base.

Don

Don

Posted
Posted
Detached equipment on the pitch. It happened earlier this year on the Tigers or Yanks(I believe). I think it was one of the Molina brothers. He used his mask to corral a ball after the pitch and the umpires awarded 1 base on it.
7.05j
Don

Don

Posted
Posted
I am going to check with some bigger dogs than me but the first play is anything that legitimately retires a runner, doesn't a catch do that? I realize a grounder or bouncing ball is not a play but a catch should be. I will get back with an answer.
Catching a ground ball, or a fly ball is not a play for purposes of this rule. Looking a runner back to a base before throwing is not a play. Attempting to tag a passing runner is a play, or throwing to a base to retire a runner is a play.
mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

Yeah,yeah,yeah, I was wrong. It's a moot point anyway because there is no difference between awards if an infielder catches a ball in flight and then throws it out of play. But the fact remains is I was wrong.

LMSANS

LMSANS

Posted
Posted

Yeah,yeah,yeah, I was wrong. It's a moot point anyway because there is no difference between awards if an infielder catches a ball in flight and then throws it out of play. But the fact remains is I was wrong.

:agasp_:SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap:

:WTF

PeteBooth

PeteBooth

Posted
Posted

I was looking for the answer to where to place the runners in this scenario.

With a runner on first no outs, the batter hits a fly ball to right field. R1 stays close to the bag (believing it may be caught). BR charges down the line. The ball is not caught in right field and R1 starts running to second. F9 picks up the ball and throws wildly towards third base to stop R1 from advancing. At the time of the throw both R1 and BR are between 1B and 2B because of R1's late break. The ball sails over third base out of play. Place the runners.

On a throw from the outfield each runner should get 2 bases from the time that the fielder releases the ball. This would place both runners at third. Would you place the runners at second and third? or would R1 score and BR be at third? what would happen in this situation?

Since this is an umpire Forum, as Warner Wolf says Let's go to the rule book.

Here is the applicable rule which is the same as your OP.

OBR Rule 7.05(g) Comment: In certain circumstances it is impossible to award a runner two bases. Example: Runner on first. Batter hits fly to short right. Runner holds up between first and second and batter comes around first and pulls up behind him. Ball falls safely. Outfielder, in throwing to first, throws ball into stand.

APPROVED RULING: Since no runner, when the ball is dead, may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled, the runner originally on first base goes to third base and the batter is held at second base.

In your OP R1 to third and the BR to second supported by the aforementioned rule and comment.

Pete Booth

PeteBooth

PeteBooth

Posted
Posted

R2, batter hits groundball to F6, who catches it, looks the R2 back to the bag and then promptly throws the ball into the 1st base dugout. I, BU, award BR second and R2 home. And then try to explain DC the ruling, why R2 scored... Where do they get these 1+1 ideas?

What came to my mind, is F6's forcefull looking R2 back to the base considered "a play"? The result would have been same anyway, TOT or TOP.

MS

You have the awards correct but you did not use proper mechanics. You deal with the LEAD runner first NOT the BR when making awards.

As soon as the ball goes into DBT the call is

1. TIME

2. We now make awards

3. Awards for the most part are determined by TOT or TOP

In your case it's TOP because it's the first play by an infielder.

A play as defined by Roder / Evans is when the defense makes an attempt to put out a runner. A fielder looking at the runner is NOT an attempt to retire said runner so in your scenario the award is 2 bases from TOP.

We deal with the LEAD runner first not the BR.

You said I, BU, award BR second and R2 home.

That is NOT the correct mechanic even though in this scenario it makes no difference but it could as in the Original OP presented.

You award R2 home THEN award the BR second base.

Why do we deal with the lead runner first?

let's go back to the OP. We have R1 and a fly ball (doesn't matter where)

Since it's a fly ball, R1 is most likely 1/3 or 1/2 way to second waiting to see if the ball will be caught or not. The BR rounds first (cannot pass R1) and is most likely right behind or near R1.

Now the ball goes into DBT. You do NOT START with the BR in making the awards otherwise you get the wrong result and therefore, put yourself in jeopardy of a knowledgeable coach protesting a rule misapplication.

You start with the LEAD runner. In the OP's scenario R1 gets third base - 2 bases from TOT and the BR only gets second base meaning in reality the BR was awarded only one base which is explained in the OBR Comment section that I quoted in another response.

Pete Booth

Finnblue

Finnblue

Posted
Posted

You have the awards correct but you did not use proper mechanics. You deal with the LEAD runner first NOT the BR when making awards.

Sorry, I just wrote it wrong way. Of course I promptly yelled "TIME", then awarded R2 home and after that BR second base. Then I taught DC that there's no 1+1 awards.

And I didn't stop there starting to wonder if F6's look at the runner was a play, I didn't consider it so, it was only an afterthought in my mind, like a funny play. I'm sorry I ever brought it up. :crazy:

MS

  • 2 weeks later...
Lhaber9

Lhaber9

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I just thought of something else in regards to the original

post that i made. Say after the throw went to third, the runner who was on first rounded third, before the throw got to the third baseman. I know this seems unlikely. But if the ball were to go out of play does the runner go back to third? What if the third baseman were to intentionaly let it go out of play? Is the call different?

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