Another Balk Thread

[rainier]

Runner on 2, RHP from a stretch already set. F1 steps with his pivot foot toward 2nd and throws in one continuous motion.

I think my problem with this is the shoulder and hip rotation required to make the throw. This all occurs while the pivot foot is in the process of disengaging the rubber rather than after. Legal or not?

[treedog24]

Runner on 2, RHP from a stretch already set. F1 steps with his pivot foot toward 2nd and throws in one continuous motion.

I think my problem with this is the shoulder and hip rotation required to make the throw. This all occurs while the pivot foot is in the process of disengaging the rubber rather than after. Legal or not?

So are you saying that his pivot foot went behind the pitching plate(step off)? If that is the case no balk, he's a fielder. He properly disenaged the plate.

[LMSANS]

A quote from Tim_C on the ABUA site "It is impossible to balk to second base!"

;)

[mstaylor]

I am reading that the throw is preceding the landing of the foot. I would have to see it but it is possible that is a balk for properly disengaing.

[zm1283]

A quote from Tim_C on the ABUA site "It is impossible to balk to second base!"

Larry,

I saw an NCAA umpire bulletin on YouTube that showed a LHP doing the "wheel" move to second base. His right foot (non-pivot) didn't clear the back edge of the rubber when it landed. He then picked it up and threw to second for an attempted pick off. The guy narrating said that a balk should have been called for not gaining ground toward second.

Does this sound right?

[blindumpire99]

A quote from Tim_C on the ABUA site "It is impossible to balk to second base!"

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!--- Incorrect ......

Pitcher comes set..checks 2nd, steps toward the plate with his pivot foot, turns and throws to 2nd...

BINGO!

I had it happen earlier this FED season in one of the 5 games I worked before my '09 season ending injury...

[mstaylor]

Stepping in front of or on top of the rubber is a balk for stepping to home and not delivering a pitch. Technically it isn't a balk to second but a balk to the plate. While it is possible to balk to second it is so tough as to be near impossible.

[LMSANS]

Stepping in front of or on top of the rubber is a balk for stepping to home and not delivering a pitch. Technically it isn't a balk to second but a balk to the plate. While it is possible to balk to second it is so tough as to be near impossible.

:tantrum:That's Right Mike!

It doesn't say you can't have a balk with a man on 2B, just that the balk is identified in other ways.

BTW, I won't defend the statement even though I can't think of a situation where it isn't true. If you strongly disagree with it, have some fun and set up a thread telling Tim_C he is wrong on that other site. :clap:

[rainier]

I am reading that the throw is preceding the landing of the foot. I would have to see it but it is possible that is a balk for properly disengaing.

The throw is timed to be at the same time as the landing of the foot. My hangup is that he rotates his hips and shoulders to second while his pivot foot is still in the air. That to me means balk.

As the rules state you cannot turn your shoulders after the hands are set. His shoulders completely turn to second while the pivot foot is in the air prior to disengaging.

[jim knight]

I would have to see it... but from the posts so far.... I say no balk. Now if he made that rotation move to second and went home.... Balk / if he goes to second I have nothing. Real hard to balk if throwing to second base....

[noumpere]

The throw is timed to be at the same time as the landing of the foot. My hangup is that he rotates his hips and shoulders to second while his pivot foot is still in the air. That to me means balk.

As the rules state you cannot turn your shoulders after the hands are set. His shoulders completely turn to second while the pivot foot is in the air prior to disengaging.

Is it any different from LH F1 stepping back with the pivot and throwing to first? By rule, the pivot foot must land before the throw starts. In practice, the foot must land before the throw leaves the hand.

I have seen the move (RH to second), and sometimes allowed it and sometimes balked it.

[mstaylor]

No, t's the same principle. As I say I would have to see it because if timed right the throw can precede the landing but it has to almost simultainious. The only balk that I can think of to second would be throwing without stepping at all or not disengaging. Here again technically not a balk to second but an improper disengagement.

[gixxershane]

This may seem like a stupid question, but I have not worked on the 90' field yet. What is the difference between a balk and an improper disenganement?? What is the penalty for improper disengagement?

[mstaylor]

Illegal disengagement=balk. I point out the difference because it isn't a balk to second, but still a balk.

[blindumpire99]

You can also "balk", by rule, by throwing to 2nd (or 1st or 3rd) while not making a legitimate attempt at a play at the particular base..

Tim C scares me about this much >:wow:

[BrianC14]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!--- Incorrect ......

Pitcher comes set..checks 2nd, steps toward the plate with his pivot foot, turns and throws to 2nd...

BINGO!

I had it happen earlier this FED season in one of the 5 games I worked before my '09 season ending injury...

He stepped toward HOME with his pivot foot?

Either way, that's not a balk to second base - that's a balk because he failed to deliver a pitch.

[BT_Blue]

If you strongly disagree with it, have some fun and set up a thread telling Tim_C he is wrong on that other site.

Isnt Tim also on this site?

No matter. I dont recommend getting into that arguement for you WILL not win it. Not only that I dont think any of the rest of us want to go through dealing with that argument again.

[mstaylor]

Tim is not on this site.

[BT_Blue]

I thought I remember seeing him on here. What ever... right?

[JamesC]

I hate the wheel play and I hate the 3rd to 1st pickoff. I think the wheel play can be manipulated far too much, with many variations to it, and many times seeming like a balk to somewhere (whether it being 2nd or the plate). Although the 3rd to 1st pickoff is, for the majority of the time, not that effective, and fairly easy to read as a player, I still despise it! A balk = (in simple terms) deceiving the/a runner, right? Well, 3rd to 1st is deceiving the runner on first. You may say, "well, stepping to 3rd is disengaging the rubber" and you would be correct, but I don't understand why a RHP can step to 3rd and do nothing, but a LHP cannot step to 1st and do nothing. Can anyone explain this part to me? I understand, not a hard pickoff move to read, but very confusing to me how this is not deceiving the runner at 1st.

[mstaylor]

It's simply that the rules require a throw to first if you don't disengage. It matters not what hand you are. You may step and feint to second or third. Once off the rubber the move back to first is by an infielder, not a pitcher.

Be careful of using deception as a basis of balk calling. It is only a portion of the rule and is mentioned in the book for it to used as a tie breaker if there is doubt. Unfortunately many have taken it and bastardized it to be the first ting considered. There are many legal ways to decieve a runner and it is the pitcher's job to ultilize them to the fullest. When steps from legal deception to illegal deception, then we have a balk. There are also many technical balks that have nothing to do with decieving a runner but must be called all the same.

[BT_Blue]

Oh boy. Everyone, please let this not become a "deceiving the runner" thread!!!

For me, for the most part I agree. I too think the 3rd to 1st move SHOULD be a balk... but it isnt and hasnt been for as long as I have been working. The only thing I really look for is the step (distance and direction) and then let the rest fall where they may.

Also, just to stop this before it happens... yes we have already all decided that you can not balk to second base... its credited as a balk elsewhere. Its something that has gone into ad nausium on both this and other message boards.