Should I tell the coach?

[ShinySideUp]

In two separate games this week, with different teams (both 13U USSSA), the catcher would consistently line up WAY outside - like the glove is at or beyond the outside edge. Pitches come in, and they're outside, but because of where the F2 is set up, the coaches think it's a strike.

In the first game, it got to the point where the coach was so upset that his disagreement about a balk call sent him ballistic, and he wound up getting tossed. He hadn't said anything to me that I could warn or toss him before he blew up.

Tonight's game, the F1 was unhappy, but again, not chirping at me so I could warn. Coach didn't complain, but the "fans" gave out a lot of "Wow!" and "Good pitch! Throw that one again!"

So... the question: is it advisable to tell the coach "If your catcher didn't set up so far outside, when F1 hit the mitt it'd be a strike"?

(Side note: Tonight's F2 set up even farther outside on a 0-2 count, and F1's threw right to the mitt, but batter reached out and drove it to deep center. Coach asked, "Hey blue, was that on the outside half of the plate?" and I answered him. Good idea or not, given that he was polite about it, and hadn't given me any grief?

[Mr Umpire]

If a coach asks me where the pitch is, I will tell him.

If he is just sitting over there and isn't smart enough to ask about it instead of moaning about it, then let him keep moaning about it. Eventually, he will get himself tossed or the game will end.

I say, do not offer info if not asked. That may be viewed as coaching the coach. But, that is just me. You can do what is accepted in your area. I generally don't offer info especially if they are just going to sit over there and whine all game, why should I do them a favor. The catcher knows what he is doing. I just call my zone and let them cry about it all night.

Of course, the problem is that they don't understand what 1 umpire allows, the other may not. Instead of adjusting and learning, they just whine in hopes of the umpire adjusting to them. Some give in and some don't. I am for the ones who don't. Call your zone and don't change it to accommodate them.

I especially love the "Throw it there again" line. Do they not realize doing the same thing over again gets the same results. The bad thing is when a pitcher throws one outside and then follows it up with almost the same pitch and it is actually on the plate this time. Now, that stupid parent/coach who just yelled it feels like he was right and will keep saying that stupid line. :smachhead:

[willv28]

I try not to answer a coach that's being a pain directly with where a pitch was. It's also aggravating when they ask a lot. I wish they wouldn't ask because it can cause issues. Like above said. I pretty much prefer a catcher asking. I had something similar recently. But they'd missed the target a lot so they were usually called balls.

If I told anyone about where they were setting up it would be the catcher I might say something to a younger kid like "If you're setting up that far outside then it's likely the ball is too." Though in my mind I'm thinking the pitch needs to be perfect and the target be good. Like in that game.

[BrianC14]

If I'm on the dish, coaches ask only once about where pitches are.

For some strange reason, they never seem to ask a second time.

On the rare occasion that they do ask a second time, they're never around to ask a third time.

And I don't get mad. I get "ejecty".

:shakehead:

[mstaylor]

If a coach asks, I generally answer. If he makes it a habit or chirps, he gets shut down.

[blindumpire99]

I second what Mr Umpire has said and simply add a couple of thoughts of my own...

One, if you have the catcher setting up waaay off the plate, you can demonstrate his position, at least in theory to the "educated who "get it", if you remain set up straight in your stance, right down the heart of the plate or even better shading towards the inside corner like you would normally. Eventually, someone is going to see what's happening, put 2 + 2 together and figure out just how they're missing the plate...I've done it and it works.

Or, if you get pitches off the plate, I have used two other methods of demonstrating just how far they are miss by either telling rat who asks, "Coach, that pitch would have nailed a LH (or RH) batter in the batter's box!", or, "Coach, that pitch would have been BEHIND a LH (or RH) batter!" That seems to work equally as well.

In rare cases, I have also informed rat coach when he asks how far a pitch is out my "exact measurment" of said pitch, example, "That missed 14 3/8 inches, maybe 14 1/2 inches", or some other wacky measurement.

I rarely use that, but it's amazing just well it has worked for me...Chirping over, usually, as they scratch their heads..

[moblue]

I had a catcher last night that was set up at the center of the plate, but the pitches were either inside or outside. This was about the 4th inning and I hadn't had any problems all night. Suddenly the HC of the Home team says something while his team is on defense to the effect of "That was a strike last half inning." He didn't chirp too much more, but at the half inning he wouldn't throw the foul ball to me. He decided to walk it all the way to me. Luckily the town's commish was my BU that night and he was there right beside me when the coach handed me the ball and said, "Let's make sure the strike zone stays the same from inning to inning." I reminded him that he couldn't see inside or outside, but he said he could see up and down. That's when the commish stepped in to back me up and told the guy the pitches were missing. The coach tried to get his point across to the commish, but the commish repeated himself. No more chirping the rest of the night.

Home team lost by 2 after an extra inning. Not bad at all considering they were expecting a blowout.

Sorry for getting off topic, but I had to share my related story. lol. To the OP I would consider finding a good time to explain to him that his catcher is set up outside. I'm guilty myself of not telling, because I think it would usually cause more harm than good trying to explain yourself to a coach. Most would see that as a chance to get a "free shot" in at you by your own invitation. Would telling the BU to say something if the opportunity arises be out of place? I'm just trying to think of a way to keep from getting the coach needlessly tossed here. After all, he is probably clueless as to how far in/outside his catcher is setup.

Edited June 6, 2009 by moblue

[Mr Umpire]

I had a catcher last night that was set up at the center of the plate, but the pitches were either inside or outside. This was about the 4th inning and I hadn't had any problems all night. Suddenly the HC of the Home team says something while his team is on defense to the effect of "That was a strike last half inning." He didn't chirp too much more, but at the half inning he wouldn't throw the foul ball to me. He decided to walk it all the way to me. Luckily the town's commish was my BU that night and he was there right beside me when the coach handed me the ball and said, "Let's make sure the strike zone stays the same from inning to inning." I reminded him that he couldn't see inside or outside, but he said he could see up and down. That's when the commish stepped in to back me up and told the guy the pitches were missing. The coach tried to get his point across to the commish, but the commish repeated himself. No more chirping the rest of the night.

Home team lost by 2 after an extra inning. Not bad at all considering they were expecting a blowout.

Sorry for getting off topic, but I had to share my related story. lol. To the OP I would consider finding a good time to explain to him that his catcher is set up outside. I'm guilty myself of not telling, because I think it would usually cause more harm than good trying to explain yourself to a coach. Most would see that as a chance to get a "free shot" in at you by your own invitation. Would telling the BU to say something if the opportunity arises be out of place? I'm just trying to think of a way to keep from getting the coach needlessly tossed here. After all, he is probably clueless as to how far in/outside his catcher is setup.

I think sending the BU (or him doing it on his own) is a bad idea. It says the PU can't handle the situation himself and lets them think they can walk all over him. If anyone is going to discuss the strike zone, it is the PU. After all, these are his calls.

I leave them to keep doing their stupid antics until I feel they have gone too far. Then, it is time to tell them to leave. Remember, we don't eject them. They eject themselves. We just tell them when it is time.

I do not eject that many. Most of my ejections came when we were still doing Men's ball.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[therefump]

If I'm on the dish, coaches ask only once about where pitches are.

For some strange reason, they never seem to ask a second time.

On the rare occasion that they do ask a second time, they're never around to ask a third time.

And I don't get mad. I get "ejecty".

EJECTY - is that a technical term?

Also, I would assume you treat all coaches the same but what about the guy that will come over in between innings, act like your best friend, wants to know where his pitcher is missing (inside or outside)? This just happened to me recently. I told him we don't discuss balls and strikes.

What exactly would you say?:banghead:

[mstaylor]

If a coach comes up and quietly asks where he is missing then answer him, it's not an unreasonable question. If he comes out bitching at you, send him back to the dugout.

I had a coach ask about where the pitcher's curve ball was missing. I told him the pitches were high. He said the catcher was catching strikes. I told him his catcher was lieing because he was three to four feet too far back. If he is catching a pitch at a good height and it is breaking ball then it has to be high. He got himself tossed the next inning.

[therefump]

If a coach comes up and quietly asks where he is missing then answer him, it's not an unreasonable question. If he comes out bitching at you, send him back to the dugout. .

I agree at the lower levels but not at the varsity level. :smachhead:

[mstaylor]

Why not? We all agree that he can't see in and out, so it is a reasonable question. If he asks OK, if he just wants to complain, he needs to go to the dugout.

[Stan W.]

I had this same thing happen to me Friday....

F2 would set up so far outside that I was fully exposed with the plate in fornt of me.....he got 2 pitches called ball.....then I told him (loud enough for the coach to hear from his bucket..... )"if you set up that far outside there is no way I can call that a strike.."

they moved him in......

[catoblue]

When a coach approaches me and asks where they are missing, with an attitude of "I know they were balls, but don't know if they were in or out", I'll tell him. With younger players I'll go one step further and mention that F2 is setting up way in/ouside.

If it's complaining - "That's enough"....

[BrianDawn95]

If a coach comes up and quietly asks where he is missing then answer him, it's not an unreasonable question. If he comes out bitching at you, send him back to the dugout.

I had a coach ask about where the pitcher's curve ball was missing. I told him the pitches were high. He said the catcher was catching strikes. I told him his catcher was lieing because he was three to four feet too far back. If he is catching a pitch at a good height and it is breaking ball then it has to be high. He got himself tossed the next inning.

If a coach asks quietly, I will always tell him if a pitcher is missing in a particular spot. This is LL, and the goal is to help the kids improve, while calling a tight and disciplined gamed. I know the coaches in my LL, and i know when they are making a sincere inquiry and if they are being argumentative. If I were umping coaches with whom I was unfamiliar, I think I would have a much shorter leash. After all, this job is hard enough as it is.

[BT_Blue]

there is one local pony team here where the catcher will set up in the other batters box... at the instructions of his coach... since the coach is calling the pitches.

You dont hear much about "where was that pitch" from him cause he knows what he called but you can hear it a bit from the fans.

A fellow umpire told me I should demand that the catcher keep one foot in the catchers box (area since its not chalked in). then if he doesnt start balking the pitcher with runners on.

[therefump]

there is one local pony team here where the catcher will set up in the other batters box... at the instructions of his coach... since the coach is calling the pitches.

You dont hear much about "where was that pitch" from him cause he knows what he called but you can hear it a bit from the fans.

A fellow umpire told me I should demand that the catcher keep one foot in the catchers box (area since its not chalked in). then if he doesnt start balking the pitcher with runners on.

Catcher must set up in the catchers box otherwise it's a BALK on the Catcher. Same rule applies to F3 setting up with both feet in foul territory (typically holding the runner on). It's a BALK. The rule is that all fielders must be in "fair territory" when the pitcher pitches.

Hernandez tried in in MLB and the umpire TOLD him to get into fair territory otherwise......

Check rule 4.03 and 4.03(a)

[noumpere]

Catcher must set up in the catchers box otherwise it's a BALK on the Catcher. Same rule applies to F3 setting up with both feet in foul territory (typically holding the runner on). It's a BALK. The rule is that all fielders must be in "fair territory" when the pitcher pitches.

Hernandez tried in in MLB and the umpire TOLD him to get into fair territory otherwise......

Check rule 4.03 and 4.03(a)

4.03(a) applies only when it's an intentional walk. And, I seem to recall that the rule was written when the catcher's box was the same shape as in LL -- the foul lines extended, not the rectangle it is now. So, it would be hard for F2 to be out of that box.

And, there's no such thing as a "fielder's balk" under OBR.

[Mr Umpire]

Catcher must set up in the catchers box otherwise it's a BALK on the Catcher. Same rule applies to F3 setting up with both feet in foul territory (typically holding the runner on). It's a BALK. The rule is that all fielders must be in "fair territory" when the pitcher pitches.

Hernandez tried in in MLB and the umpire TOLD him to get into fair territory otherwise......

Check rule 4.03 and 4.03(a)

It is not a balk if a fielder is in foul territory. It is a simple "Don't do that or I will eject you" if brought to the attention of the umpire. Do not call a balk on this. That is a myth which has survived as long as the "hands are part of the bat" or "tie goes to the runner" myths.

I know you are not the only one who thinks it is. I heard of it called on a field the other night while I was on a different field by an umpire. And, I wouldn't be looking for it. I would only say something if brought to your attention. This is one of those "leave it alone" issues b/c it will cause more problems than it is worth. MLBUM and PBUC specifically cover this issue.

[Dominic]

Like most things experiance really helps. I will give a lower level coach that asks about a pitch from the dug out one answer. I will meet him between innings pull out my lineup card and tell him to ask his catcher about future pitches between innings. After that, the questions from the dugout are not questions they are complaints and I don't do complaints.

In the upper levels I don't take much out of the dugout. At these levels the coach the catcher and the pitcher have signals given by the catcher to let them know when I miss a picth. (yup they do it to you too) I miss em once in a while and that is fine, we all know. But the questions from the dug out at higher levels are always viewed as complaints and I don't do complaints.

I have no problem with a catcher setting up off the plate and the pitcher hitting his spot. But whoa be it to the cathcher who holds that pitch, thats a complant and I don't do complaints. I will tell the catcher don't hold em, I saw it when it crossed the plate and I will give you the call when I see a strike. I hate it when the catcher holds a pitch, they are arguing balls and strikes and can get coaches and fans all worked up. And don't forget they know what the pitch was.

I will talk to a catcher I have not worked with. (and do feel that I work with catchers) this talking starts as I watch pitches as he takes the warm ups in the 1st inning. I intoduce myself and tell him I will work hard for him all game. I tell him if he has a question to leave his mask on and ask, I tell him if his pitcher shows me up he better handle it before I do, and I tell him to be truthful with his coach when he gets to the dugout but he better lie like a rug from the field.

I also understand that I have bad days and I may miss a few more than normal. I have to be a little more tolerant if I miss one as the comment may not be a complaint but a reminder to concentrate a little harder.

[SNIPERBBB]

In HS, I am talking to the catcher first. Not a single soul in the world other than possibly the batter if he/she is close enough will ever know you said a single word unless the catcher blabs. A good catcher will move back in without another comment. If the catcher is a bit on the slow side, you might mention it to the coach in passing between innings.